LiamD Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Trust me, I feel your pain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99hjhm Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Ah yeah i know, its just a bit of a bugger to have to do it again, theres a few things i want to do so i suppose this is the chance!Ive now narrowed it down to the rings, After checking the breather and oil filler and finding quite substansial pressure at those places, there is a large ammount of blow by on the rings it seems, im putting it down to the car doing too much idleing when fresh and it glazing the bores before the rings had seated, and the fact the bores surface finish may not have been correct for the ring application.Plan is to take the head and sump off in the car, take out the pistons and rods, clean up the pistons and make sure all the rings arent damaged and are in the correct position.Im going to check the bore size just to make sure, but im pretty sure the rings and pistons are right for the bore as i cant hear any slapping, and the rings were correctly gapped up and had the correct wall clearance.Then i am going to ball hone the cylinders to a 240 grit finish. And refit the pistons and original total seal rings, put it back together again and try again.If That does not work, then im going to do it again, but with a set of oem rings. Total seal rings are known for either being amaising, or not working.... hence my predicerment i think!JohnSounds dead on . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbin Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 really gutted for you m8, i went thought a similar thing when i had mine done. Went to storm saying they could just trick the original ecu to run the supercharger then messing with it for months then deciding the best thing for it would be to run the emerald ecu and throw the standard one in the bin (well not in the big just a cardboard box in my bedroom). Once u get it sorted you will realise its all worth it. Just dont give in like most people Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasperGTI Posted May 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) Cheers paul, Yeah its such a faff about to get it running smoothly its unbelievable... one thing i dont do is give up!Looking through loads of threads about total seal rings, it looks like they over specify the gaps of the rings fron instalation, so i may have gapped the rings to large when i installed them. Never played with these rings before so it was always going to be an unknown. I have to use total seal rings with my pistons anyway as they were made for the pistons and vise versa, running a 1.2/1.2/3.0mm ring thickness where the original was 1.2/1.5/2.5mm and that is crucial. Looks like ill need to get another set on order.Im going with a few other ideas now too. Becasue i have a small pulley, when the dump valve shuts, the spike of boost is so high, it tries to stall the charger. This makes my power delivery very lumpy.So it looks like im going to go back to my original plan..... TB before the charger, and no dump valve. Will have exactly the same power outputs, but a much smoother and linear power delivery. It will be a bit quieter too (its stupidly loud). Im already running a cable throttle and re jigged all the pipes already, its just a case of welding it to my stainless inlet pipe really. Dont know why i didnt think about doing this from the off!All these upgrades..... and its not even running 100% correct.Ill pop up some photos and vids of it running anyway, before i pull it to peices again.John Edited May 13, 2009 by CasperGTI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigz™ Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 It will be a bit quieter too (its stupidly loud).Ghey[/COUGH] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasperGTI Posted May 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 Seriously dude, you dont realise what an eaton sounds like spinning at 17000 rpm. The scream is off the scale!Its just too noisy, like over the top noisy. When im finished it will still be noisy, but ill get a bit of induction noise, combined with a quieter whine, which when the TB is open will still be very loud. Im just trying to get a medium for it all.Anyway more on that later, must focus on taking the head off, as i have to get that sorted first. The weather for the weekend isnt filling me with much motivation atm.....John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbin Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 but that noise is so nice:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiamD Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 Seriously dude, you dont realise what an eaton sounds like spinning at 17000 rpm. The scream is off the scale!Its just too noisy, like over the top noisy. When im finished it will still be noisy, but ill get a bit of induction noise, combined with a quieter whine, which when the TB is open will still be very loud. Im just trying to get a medium for it all.No one ever thinks about putting up with that noise in the everyday commute! I did 2000 miles in mine and it was generally pretty annoying, you would get out the car, pop an ibuprofen and try and live with the ringing in your ears...At least you still have an interior and some sound deadening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99hjhm Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 What did you gap the rings to?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasperGTI Posted May 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Did them to what total seal said in there booklet, but it does seem quite alot tbh.Top ring 18 thouSecond 15 thouOil ring 20 thou I though these were high when i did them, the top and oil ring gap sounds too big to me, but i jsut thought bacause there a different type of ring that they had different recomendaitons, so just followed the instructions. I think it might just be one of these learning curves on that one! Ill just have to order a new set of rings, and do them a fair bit smaller.John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigz™ Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Seriously dude, you dont realise what an eaton sounds like spinning at 17000 rpm. The scream is off the scale!Nope, but I can imagine, and I imagine it'd be mint screaming past an M5 at 120MPH with the driver wondering where the fighter Jet is! As I say.. Ghey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasperGTI Posted May 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Nope, but I can imagine, and I imagine it'd be mint screaming past an M5 at 120MPH with the driver wondering where the fighter Jet is! As I say.. Ghey The reduction pulley just makes it that whole load worse.Im getting the car from having the bodywork polished up after the work tomorrow, so ill do a photo/video session before i take the head off.John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigz™ Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Can't wait!Make sure you driving this time :-p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbin Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 (edited) ive had my car done for 2-3 years now and ive done many miles, never found the supercharger noise a problem aways makes me smile. Its my exhaust that to noisey.Get that video up. Edited May 15, 2009 by paulbin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99hjhm Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Did them to what total seal said in there booklet, but it does seem quite alot tbh.Top ring 18 thouSecond 15 thouOil ring 20 thou I though these were high when i did them, the top and oil ring gap sounds too big to me, but i jsut thought bacause there a different type of ring that they had different recomendaitons, so just followed the instructions. I think it might just be one of these learning curves on that one! Ill just have to order a new set of rings, and do them a fair bit smaller.JohnCant remember the what TS gaps were compared to std style rings....But....(By the way, it may be the yank pistons... But its cool to work in Inches )On forged pistons like you have with small skirts.... I would think .005" per Inch top ring, .004" per Inch 2nd ring and below.Lupo GTI bore is 76.5mm(??) thats 3.012" 3.012 x .005 = .0150" Top ring 3.012 x .004 = .0120" 2nd ring W/out the blower, you could use .004 top and .003 2nd ring easy. Oil ring, (one peice I'm guessing) should be gappped same as 2nd ring. Remember to chamfer the edge of the ring to avoid scoring the bore......or you could use this formula(from a mate in the US who knows what he is doing)Here is a widely use ring gap formula1st ring: bore size x .0045"2nd ring: bore size x .0035"(if you have third compression ring use second ring specs)Oil control ring: Minimum of .015" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigz™ Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 ive had my car done for 2-3 years now and ive done many miles, never found the supercharger noise a problem aways makes me smile. Its my exhaust that to noisey.I get as excited when I hear your car, as I do when I think about how mine may sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasperGTI Posted May 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 (edited) Cant remember the what TS gaps were compared to std style rings....But....(By the way, it may be the yank pistons... But its cool to work in Inches )On forged pistons like you have with small skirts.... I would think .005" per Inch top ring, .004" per Inch 2nd ring and below.Lupo GTI bore is 76.5mm(??) thats 3.012" 3.012 x .005 = .0150" Top ring 3.012 x .004 = .0120" 2nd ring W/out the blower, you could use .004 top and .003 2nd ring easy. Oil ring, (one peice I'm guessing) should be gappped same as 2nd ring. Remember to chamfer the edge of the ring to avoid scoring the bore......or you could use this formula(from a mate in the US who knows what he is doing)Here is a widely use ring gap formula1st ring: bore size x .0045"2nd ring: bore size x .0035"(if you have third compression ring use second ring specs)Oil control ring: Minimum of .015"Thanks for that info, it just points more and more to the rings being gapped too big. See now look at your gaps compared to total seals reccomendations, were talking big differences here!Street, Strip, Circle Bore x .0065"Bore x .0056" Min. .015" Nitrous up to 150hp Bore x .007" Bore x .006" Min. .015" Nitrous over 150hp Bore x .009" Bore x .008" Min. .015" Blown Gas* Bore x .007" Bore x .006" Min. .015" Blown Alcohol* Bore x .008" Bore x .007" Min. .015 Blown Nitro* Bore x .0085" Bore x .007" Min. .015Top ring for blown petrol...... 0.007 x 3.012 = 0.021!! Thats a huge top ring gap!! mabe on a big block but not this car, im pretty sure this is where my problem lies.I would think i could use 0.005 top ring and 0.004 2nd ring and a 0.015 oil ring, mabe even less, even with the blower set up. My reson behind this is becasue i have dropped the compression ratio. Everyone knows when you compress something it gets hotter, so hopefully with my dropped CR plus boost, the heat in the cylinder wont be too much more than standard (in theory of course i dont know if thats actually the case). Im going to measure the bore too jsut to check, but i cant see that being any problem as i would hear the piston chattering, which isnt happening at all, it runs very smoothly.... The superlight internals and the lightening on the flywheel and crank have really done wonders for the engine imo.Weather is poop today, so doubt ill get the head off today.... but ill get some vids up, including videos of my smoke trail!!John Edited May 16, 2009 by CasperGTI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clairey Fairy Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Good to see you're not giving up or having another tantrum over this Let me know if you have a gap in your schedule Mr Clairey's Personal Mechanic, i need your help with something and im ready to pick up my birthday presents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasperGTI Posted May 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 (edited) Boot is all wired up now and works on the central locking, took a bit of playing about to get it to work right. Had to put a spring on to the latch too to get it to reset.Heres a pic of the bay anyhow, going to strip it down this week, and got a few more touches for it.. John Edited May 17, 2009 by CasperGTI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tallika_Fan Posted May 17, 2009 Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 Looking smart John, liking it a lot. hopefully you'll have it all sorted soon.Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigz™ Posted May 17, 2009 Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 Just my number is on facebook, give me a call when you drive it home so I can hear it lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUB JIMBOB Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 (edited) Have'nt been on the forum for a while, did'nt expect to read this m8.I feel for you, im sure she will be up and running soon though. Engine bay is looking awsome, boots a nice touch aswel not many ppl have got that done.Looks like our plan is going to have to wait a little while then for no rice lol. Edited May 18, 2009 by DUB JIMBOB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasperGTI Posted May 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Yeah could be another month now!Started taking it to bits now, need to go to work and get an impact wrench for the crank bolt before i continue though. Its amaising how fast you can strip it when you know how.Its my birthday tomorrow so i doubt ill do anything tomorrow. Its just going to be an evenings job, hope to have it in some state to order rings by the weekend, and it back together by the begining of june.Somethings bound to happen though. Things havent been going right at all recently John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasperGTI Posted May 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Lots of investigation has been going on over the last week as in to why its doing what its doing. Im not one of these people that gives up and pays someone else to do it so bear with me, my brain is on overdrive already! There really wasnt anything obvious when i pulled the head off. The bores were fine, pistons matched the bores perfectly to 0.004" at the bottom of the skirt, head gasket no problems, valves also fine. Only thing that had happened is the oil jets had snapped off! And were sitting in the oil pump scavenge filter. Luckily no damage has occured!, So i now need to make a custom set of jets for the engine, as the OEM ones will not work with my conrods due to them being alot thicker than the originals.The pistons do rock a bit at TDC, But this is due to them being a small skirt slipper piston. After a conversation with JE yesterday, the assured me that this isnt the problem. And i should look in to oil control on the piston.So Started to scratch head a bit more, and looked at the patterns that the rings had been making on the fresh bores. And looks like we may have found our issue...The oil control ring has cut outs in it laterally where the oil that is scraped back goes through and then through the holes in the piston and back to the block, firstly we dont thingk there is enough holes (3 either side). After looking at the pattern it was pretty obvious that the ring had not been seating all the way round. And there was a symetrical pattern of it seating and then not seating at all. These marks coencided exactly with the cut outs in the oil ring are.So it looks like the ring has too much oil to contend with. And from hydraulic action of the oil, the ring is being pushed away from the bore, allowing oil to pass up to the 2nd ring and top ring, which once they have oil on them become useless and cannot seal. Giving me the blowby i have and the oil in the bores.So looked at the oil jets again, and they directly spray oil on to the top of the piston, directly at the holes for the returning oil from the control ring, giving the control ring too much oil for it to handle!So plan looks like to now re-ring the pistons, And get a new set of oil jets, Cut them down and bend them to point to the oil holes for the con rod instead. But also take the jet and weld the hole up in it, then re drill it to a smaller diameter which should restrict to oil. Also will be in contact with JE to see if we can drill some more holes in to the control ring seat to aid the oil removal.Going to take a fair bit of time to do though. Have to take the engine out, remove the crank and then start all over again........ sigh... Hopefully ready for GTI summer fest at pod now. At the same time, i am moving the TB to before the charger and getting rid of the dump valve. This should make the car alot nicer to drive overall.Suppose this was inevitable, first person to put forged internals in one of these engines, changed pistons and rods to different specs, it was a miracle if it worked first go!I can also be happy that i have an engine that is sound (appart form its tendancy to drink oil) and it runs with standalone management, It is so smooth and it revs very freely. So im still very happy!Stay tuned..... this is where it gets interesing... again!John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AwesomeAl Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Once a project car, Always a project car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.