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edwrai

16394 - Bank 1: Camshaft A (Intake) P0010 Lupo GTI

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Ok I've check every thread on club lupo and polo and every possible thing to find the route of this code, I've also seen that one tread even said this code isn't possible on the AVY engine, but lots of people are getting it, I have taken it to my mechanic as I couldn't find the route of this, he checked everything and also couldn't find the route, now we has brought in a electronics specialist who is also saying that this code should not occur on this car?

Has anyone who has had this code and solved it shine any light on it, it seems common, but I yet to see a solution that isn't the shared fuse with the intake heater and Lambda heaters.

The codes I get are:

17748 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28) 
            P1340 - 35-00 - Incor. Correlation
16394 - Bank 1: Camshaft A (Intake) 
            P0010 - 35-00 - Position Actuator Malfunction
17759 - Cam Position Sensor (G40) 
            P1351 - 35-10 - Implausible Signal at Starting - Intermittent

Please some help we are sure the Intake Actuator is the cause of the other 2.

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Yeah, I'm pretty sure is is one of the power busses (main power feed wires) to the engine loom. You have relays that switch on the loom power, controlled by the ECU. What can happen is that the relay contacts get dirty or fail and you get this fault. And you're right- completely unrelated to what's possible. Fun.... 

Check the relays behind the fuse box under the dash.

But believe it or not, an ignition switch controlled relay 'can' also give the same symptoms, caused by either the ignition switch or the ignition relay.

Could also be a connection between the engine loom and main loom (unlikely).

Could be the ECU connector or ECU (also very unlikely).

Let us know how you get on...

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3 hours ago, mk2 said:

Yeah, I'm pretty sure is is one of the power busses (main power feed wires) to the engine loom. You have relays that switch on the loom power, controlled by the ECU. What can happen is that the relay contacts get dirty or fail and you get this fault. And you're right- completely unrelated to what's possible. Fun.... 

Check the relays behind the fuse box under the dash.

But believe it or not, an ignition switch controlled relay 'can' also give the same symptoms, caused by either the ignition switch or the ignition relay.

Could also be a connection between the engine loom and main loom (unlikely).

Could be the ECU connector or ECU (also very unlikely).

Let us know how you get on...

This is ignition 12v to this circuit, it’s controlled by the key barrel, don’t think it’s caused by this. It’s activated by ECU ground. Anyone else have any ideas on this? As I’ve tested with a perma 12v and still occurs. Timing has been checked twice.  

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Have you checked the loom sensor supply bus? You should get on each 3 wire sensor Gnd/Signal/supply. The signal will vary between GND and the 5V supply. Any reluctor pickups go straight to the ECU, so you can ignore them. However, if the ECU is not seeing a reluctor pickup, it could be shorted or open circuit. Unusual.... But I once had one on a Mk4- a mouse had chewed the speed sensor cable going to the box. Fun living in the countryside.

Edited by mk2
typo

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49 minutes ago, mk2 said:

Have you checked the loom sensor supply bus? You should get on each 3 wire sensor Gnd/Signal/supply. The signal will vary between GND and the 5V supply. Any reluctor pickups go straight to the ECU, so you can ignore them. However, if the ECU is not seeing a reluctor pickup, it could be shorted or open circuit. Unusual.... But I once had one on a Mk4- a mouse had chewed the speed sensor cable going to the box. Fun living in the countryside.

Do you know the pin reference for this? Just out of interest if it was this shouldn’t it affect multiple items that use 5v in the engine?

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I don't know the pinout as never had to personally fix the problem you're describing on a Lupo. But very common on many vdubs. @Skezza and @LR5V have the wiring diagrams I think??? Chaps?

Yeah, it can affect multiple sensors (usually), but sometimes the ECU can't "see" the other faults until the main one has been fixed. But I think the Lupo loom doesn't share much as there's quite a bit of spare capacity on the ECU. As in, the ECU used can be used for some much bigger, complex engines.

What was the build up leading to the fault? Did it just suddenly stop working while driving or was some work being done then the fault appeared?

Edited by mk2

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I've got all the wiring diagrams, however It doesn't say which of the 12v feeds would be the feed for the 5v drop down.

It's had this issue since i've had it, strangely you cannot find the same fault on a polo gti which shares the same engine or no one has reported it but there are loads of thread on a few website about the lupo gti having this is issue, most have no concussion 1 I saw it was a wiring fault to the n205 but that's checked out fine.  I'm just thinking there must be a lot of people with this fault, so if anyone knows of anyone that has had this fault and fixed it, it would be useful to me and countless others I think as there of loads of dead threads without a fix. Maybe worth getting together all the possible reason for those Googling it?

Edited by edwrai

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Also the reading I got from the n205  Position Actuator were 3v on the signal wire and 12v on the 12v. The fault code normally comes up quite quickly also, and always shows an engine light after the second start.

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There is the "old skool" way of finding loom or sensor faults... while the engine is running, disconnect plugs. The ECU will try different subroutines to get around the fault. While it's doing this, you can use diagnostics to watch which faults pop up as either permanent or intermittant. Keep clearing the faults while you're experimenting.

The regulated precision 5V rail comes out of the ECU. Usually the voltage regulator inside the ECU is fed by an independent 12V line, controlled by an external relay- also controlled by the ECU and ignition. It's so that the ECU can check that the 5V output rail is working ok and isn't shorted or overloaded. It also will know if the 12V feed going into it is ok. There is an independent Gnd rail that also accompanies the 5V line to the sensors. The idea is that the sensors have really clean power feeds, so their outputs are as accurate as possible.

There are two types of sensors- analogue outputs which give a voltage that varies between Gnd and 5v and timing sensors which use magnetic pickups with moving metal teeth. The analogue sensors are easy to see if they're misbehaving as their voltages are all over the place, and you can see the numbers on VCDS. Timing sensors can be a pain if they misbehave. Usually they are ok or not. But the thing that affects them is distance between sensor and teeth, and contamination (especially the magnetic ones that can attract particles or metal dust or when the magnetism drops-due to age). It's worth trying to remove and reposition timing sensors that are on the way out.

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People seem to struggle with the Zip file - still works for me - but Sausage added a link to Rubjonny's Gdrive

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I'd like to see a complete wiring diagram for SDIs. No-one has one apparently.

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5 hours ago, mk2 said:

I'd like to see a complete wiring diagram for SDIs. No-one has one apparently.

Complete as in the engine Diagram? I have Elsa I can see what I can get for if you like?

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Yeah that'd be great! The engine is linked to just about everything else- even the brake pedal switch and heating controls, so everything you have would be very handy.

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Now has anyone got any experience or knows anyone that has had a fault with the cam actuator?  

I'm going to get the to the bottom as i'm yet to find anyone that has! apart from it being the shared fuse or a wiring fault to it, neither of which this seems to be.

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Just a dumb question, which I'm sure you've double checked- the cam belt timing is all correct? Just wondering if there is actually a problem at all...

There's lots of stuff you can read on TT forums about the thing.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm trying to figure out the problem rather than find a solution. As in, what is causing the messages and CEL. This is curious.

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1 hour ago, edwrai said:

Here you go this is the engine diagram.

Engine.pdf 1.74 MB · 3 downloads

There's an option for cruise control?!? Or at least a mention of it on the brake switch. Also some interesting variants for cold climate conditions too. Neat.

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1 hour ago, mk2 said:

Just a dumb question, which I'm sure you've double checked- the cam belt timing is all correct? Just wondering if there is actually a problem at all...

There's lots of stuff you can read on TT forums about the thing.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm trying to figure out the problem rather than find a solution. As in, what is causing the messages and CEL. This is curious.

Its causing a CEL and its causing a Crank Cam correlation error, it also causes it to be a bit kangrooy at low rev especially when cold.

I've had the timing checked twice.

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Just had a mad idea, but might be going well off track... I've never done a cam belt change on that specific engine. But i have on others with cam actuators. When I change the belt, I make sure to reset the actuator, so it's in the stop position. Way out there, but is it possible that when the timing is checked, static, the actuator isn't at rest? As in, timing might be out, but looks ok because the pulley has rotated to compensate... Just thinking of when fitting dizzys on old engines which make the bevel gear shaft position pot luck- often they're out too.

But I think I'm wrong- there's a setting tool usually used when doing a belt change on your lump. Only thinking out loud. @Rich may have an idea.

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If the timing is correct and the wiring is checking out fine between the sensors and ecu.

Have you swapped out said components with new?

Also do the fault memories occur when its running or just with ignition on?

What diagnostic equipment you using aswell?

Edited by Mattymdm
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2 hours ago, Mattymdm said:

Also do the fault memories occur when its running or just with ignition on?

Good point 👍🏻

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2 hours ago, Mattymdm said:

If the timing is correct and the wiring is checking out fine between the sensors and ecu.

Have you swapped out said components with new?

Also do the fault memories occur when its running or just with ignition on?

What diagnostic equipment you using aswell?

I have indeed, another actuator has been tested. 
 

I have VCDS hex net fully licences latest version 

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3 hours ago, mk2 said:

Just had a mad idea, but might be going well off track... I've never done a cam belt change on that specific engine. But i have on others with cam actuators. When I change the belt, I make sure to reset the actuator, so it's in the stop position. Way out there, but is it possible that when the timing is checked, static, the actuator isn't at rest? As in, timing might be out, but looks ok because the pulley has rotated to compensate... Just thinking of when fitting dizzys on old engines which make the bevel gear shaft position pot luck- often they're out too.

But I think I'm wrong- there's a setting tool usually used when doing a belt change on your lump. Only thinking out loud. @Rich may have an idea.

Yep the setting tool on the cams were used as it’s vvt

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11 minutes ago, mk2 said:

Good point 👍🏻

Just checked hex net is in the car useful, nope doesn’t come on if the car has ignition on

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Try Measuring block 91, should be camshaft 1, just to see what value the cam is giving - & to check it is getting signal

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