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iwcham1979

Lupo power steering conversion

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Guys, I want to retrofit power steering to my Lupo 3L converted to manual.

What is the list of parts that I need, and does it matter which Lupo version they come from? I guess I will need a pump and an oil reservoir. Apart from that? Will I need a new steering rack? Thanks.

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Lupo 3L P/S is electric, not hydraulic. You'll need a different ECU as well.

RAB

 

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Hey hey, @RAB's back.

I've been reading various articles on the A2 forum. Lots of AMF and similar related fun...

Should be a PM this, but I guess of interest to others (and RAB's a knowledgable chap, albeit a bit grumpy...).

@RAB, when you've been experimenting on your 3 pots, after doing cam belt changes, have you ever done the hot engine injection timing correction factor check? I've discovered (but have no 3 pot engine to play on at present), that after doing a belt change, you can see how accurately the timing is set (3 bolts on cam), after using the locking tools. It varies a lot with temp, so you're meant to check it with a hot engine & box. Should read '0' if correct. VCDS item 4, group 4. I'm curious to know how good/accurate the cam locking tools are. Apparently, they're calibrated to be used at something like 16c...?

Also, have you ever done the timing chain tensioner?

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Hi Rab, my Lupo is converted to manual... I wouldn't need a different ecu... Is it possible to do an easy swap?

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Why do want to change the power steering from electric to mechanical? The electric system works well. Is there a problem with it? The electric system uses the speed sensor, so if the speed sensor on the manual gearbox isn't working, it wont work correctly...

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A bit grumpy? How do you know? What annoys me is people writing about things that they clearly know nothing about! That doesn't necessarily include yourself! I always use both locking tools and then re-check if they still fit after fitting the belt. So checking with VCDS shouldn't be necessary. If it showed that it was wrong, how would you correct it anyway? If you do it without locking tools, it's going to be incorrect anyway and VCDS will only prove it.

iwcham wants to fit power steering, not remove it, but he thinks it's electro-hydraulic.

RAB

 

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12 hours ago, iwcham1979 said:

Hi Rab, my Lupo is converted to manual... I wouldn't need a different ecu... Is it possible to do an easy swap?

Lupo 3L's with electric P/S have their own ECU version. It has purely electro-mechanical  steering, not electro-hydraulic like all other Lupos. You'd need to change the steering column, ECU and wiring. The rack is unchanged I think. Good luck with that!

RAB

 

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1 hour ago, RAB said:

A bit grumpy? How do you know.

LOL! Exactly..... :)

(add a 'grrrr' sound after asking 'how do you know')

 

.... If it showed that it was wrong, how would you correct it anyway? If you do it without locking tools, it's going to be incorrect anyway and VCDS will only prove it.....

You can spot the 'difference from mean' using VCDS- so in theory (I haven't tried it, but read that lots of people swear by this method), you can set it up using locking tools to get it basically right, then when hot, slacken the three cam pulley locking bolts off a fraction, put the car into 4th gear (engine off, but hot), a nudge the car forward to tweak it so it's perfect = 0 variation. Going from +1 or -1 is quite noticable apparently. I was certain you'd have tried that method. :)

 

 

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Sounds to me like a lot of trial and error! On Fuelly the A2 has a running average of 90.2mpg and the Lupo 89.4. Beat that!

RAB

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On 11/22/2019 at 12:35 AM, iwcham1979 said:

Hi Rab, my Lupo is converted to manual... I wouldn't need a different ecu... Is it possible to do an easy swap?

I wouldn't do it, in fact if I could I'd revert to manual steering if I could, with the 1 litre car it's not worth having at all because the motor is so light

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Awesome! Most jealous. Been thinking about getting a 1.2 A2, but most of the ones I've seen I've seen are very tatty- even at £2k+. They do hold their value.

Generally best I get from any of my SDIs is about 82MPG (but I have modded the inlet plunum and ducting for more laminar flow).

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There's more to life than mpg....

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Yeah, but it's nice to know that if i go out in the Lupo, i get almost free rides. 

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On 11/21/2019 at 7:38 PM, mk2 said:

@RAB, when you've been experimenting on your 3 pots, after doing cam belt changes, have you ever done the hot engine injection timing correction factor check?

Did you ever read the small print on this page:

https://www.ross-tech.com/vag-scope/TDIGraph.html

I quote: " Note to PD (pumpe duese aka unit injectors) and CR (common rail) owners:  The timing in PD and CR engines is determined electronically by the ECU. There is neither a need nor an ability to check timing on the PD or CR engines using a scan tool. There are no graphs published for the simple reason that the timing is set using a dedicated VAG locking tool when changing the timing belt 🙂 "

RAB

 

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I think I havent been clear... I have a 3L converted to manual. It has no power steering, nor did it have it when it was automatic... Since it is now a plain old manual Lupo as far as Ecu and all else are concerned, I would like to add power steering from a 1.4Tdi, if possible... My wife drives it most of the time, and she finds it difficult in heavy traffic and tight places....

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4 hours ago, RAB said:

Did you ever read the small print on this page:

https://www.ross-tech.com/vag-scope/TDIGraph.html

I quote: " Note to PD (pumpe duese aka unit injectors) and CR (common rail) owners:  The timing in PD and CR engines is determined electronically by the ECU. There is neither a need nor an ability to check timing on the PD or CR engines using a scan tool. There are no graphs published for the simple reason that the timing is set using a dedicated VAG locking tool when changing the timing belt 🙂 "

RAB

 

Yeah, I know that reference... used it a few times for SDI timing checks. I'll see if I can find that correction factor thing. On the tdi forums somewhere. I'm certain it's measuring blocks 4, item 4 though. Also mentioned somewhere by Uwe on his rosstech site too. I've never tried it though. I need to get my hands on someone's 3 pot when one is in the workshop. I think the ECU knows if the timing is out by measuring the change in flywheel velocity (a bit like how you can watch the injector quantity adjustment compensation on an SDI). There's no cam sensor as far as I know.

Edit: found it... https://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=228579  There's also a mention on a similar vein on the A2 (1.2 flavour), which I know you know very well...

@iwcham1979 every lupo has power steering (electric or hydraulic) from the factory as far as I know. Which one is in your car? Maybe you just need to connect it?

Edited by mk2

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You are mistaken, at least as far as 3Ls are concerned. Lupo 3Ls came from factory with either electronic power steering or no power steering at all... My 3L never had it... Now that it is a manual converted 3L, I can't retrofit electronic power steering, even if I wanted to. It is impossible. What I can do is retrofit ordinary hydraulic power steering like in plain ordinary Lupos... 

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Oh, ok. New info to me :) Thanks. We don't have 3L in the uk (unless special import).

So you will need to change steering column & steering rack, get power steering pump bracket (1.4tdi), power steering pump, extra pulley and belt for crank or maybe change all the pulleys (not sure, maybe from 1.4TDI). And the pipes. And the fluid reservoir. I have never done it on a Lupo. Golf yes.

or get complete electric power steering system from another 3L car...

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Thanks! Fitting the complete power steering from another 3L is possible as much as fitting it to a 1.0Mpi. Remember, my 3L is now mechanically much closer to a 1.pi than to a 3L... Very useful info on the conversion though.... What holds the pump to the engine? Any holder that I need? 

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Yeah, you need a bracket. But 1.2 block is different to 1.4 block, so i am not sure if the power steering pump bracket will fit... My guess is the Audi is also electric power steering? @RAB knows. My guess is electric system is less work and quicker to fit, but you may need to do some "extra" wiring. Speed sensor?

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All I know is that the electric power steering  is tightly integrated into the whole thing, and requires gearbox ecu to run... I don't know whether someone has managed to get it to work with manual conversion. All I now is that when they convert full specced 3Ls to manuals they lose power steering and Esp in the process... In some cases Abs as well... Luckily a prson who dis my map managet to code it in :)

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The Lupo 3L power steering is integrated into the steering column so there would be no need to change the rack. The normal Lupo power steering has a totally different rack and would probably require changing the front axle; you would also have problems mounting the pump on the engine. The Lupo 3L P/S would be much simpler to install but you would also need an engine (not gearbox) ECU. Loss of ABS etc would be down to poor coding or incorrect wiring or both.

Wouldn't it have been simpler (and cheaper) to buy your wife a 1.4Tdi?

RAB

 

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@RAB, on a 3L or A2, does the steering assist vary with speed like on later Polos with their electrically pumped hydraulic system? Slowly, max assist, at speed, no assist....? 

Also, just as a matter of interest- what happens on the electrical system if the power fails? Does the system lock (like on BMWs and then they crash...)- does it use a worm gear? Is the torsion sensor (and control electronics) built into the column, meaning no external control is needed- the ECU only providing a vehicle speed signal?

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Thanks! Fitting the complete power steering from another 3L is possible as much as fitting it to a 1.0Mpi. Remember, my 3L is now mechanically much closer to a 1.pi than to a 3L... Very useful info on the conversion though.... What holds the pump to the engine? Any holder that I need? 

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My 3L has Abs working luckily, but my ECU is rewritten and doesnt require communication or presence of the gearbox ecu. My ecu is in fact a Lupo 1.4Tdi Ecu with turbo info copied from the original ecu, since 1.4Tdi has a WG turbo... :)  So I doubt that it would be possible to code in the 3L electeonic power steering?! Maybe a really good tech person... I am reluctant to sell my 3L and get a 1.4Tdi because of really low consumption and excellent condition of the car... It is fully serviced and lots of lots of new parts on it. It's got new oem shocks, timing belt done, all wheel beaeings, brakes and discs, new drums and pads, new summer and winter tyres, headlights, new 1.0Mpi gear linkage, pedals, shifter, clutch cable, Luk clutch etc... And some additional details like a VW MFD, remap to 80hp.

Edited by iwcham1979

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