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LR5V

Gti - new Clutch - Not disengaging - It wasn't the Master or slave cylinder!

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You can't bodge a GTi clutch master cylinder onto a b6 Passat when you're in the ****.

Handy piece of information that if you ever wanted to know.

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Thanks Rich - pretty much committed to getting the real thing!

 

In other news, (and I wish I was making this up) the replacement part turned up... for some reason they decided to send me a slave cylinder instead of a master!

 

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eBay parts.....

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Ebay sellers.....

Just back from a 30 mile round trip to Fife, I now have a LUK clutch master cylinder. Will tackle this in the day light

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Lots of MK2 in Fife.

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Well this gets weirder and weirder

Took the LUK master cylinder out of its package, only to find its made by Sachs.

Drained the fluid, pried the white clip with screwdrivers, disconnected the lines and finally removed the master cylinder. Put new (still with dust covers) and old side by side, first is fully in, second is fully out:

qoQPXD.jpg

AbwBjq.jpg

Any one able to confirm the shorter rod of the original is correct? 

PN on both tie up as Lupo but I suspect the longer rod will not work.

Old MC does not have consistent feel in its action.

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Just back from ECP....the reason the rod is longer is:

image.png

WTF would they give me a LHD master cylinder! 

Looking very likely to be another trip to TPS

And I dont know why, but this second image wont delete:

 

 

image.png

Edited by LR5V

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This sort of run around would drive me nuts.

Can you dismantle your old MC (looks like press in tabs on the pic) and find what the problem is. There are probably seals available but finding the right ones will be a chore in itself.

If you have reached the **** it stage you could probably swap the short rod into the new cylinder assuming it is otherwise very similar, or the new seals into your old MC assuming it isnt worn in the cylinder and the diameters are the same. 

Edited by Sausage

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Thanks Sausage  - I am very much at the **** it stage. This last few weeks really have turned into 

lemonyheader.jpg

And this listing from the Sachs E-catalogue to me is bit concerning, and surprisingly Maserati also use the same part!:

image.thumb.png.c544b5183aa5fab358bb23e6c9f566cb.png

If I had got onto this quicker in the morning I could have got to TPS and find out if a genuine one is available and its price - will have to wait till Monday to call

I have already returned the LHD one  - If I do have to strip it down, probably use a jubilee clamp and some driver bits to squeeze the 4 tabs in.

 

 

Edited by LR5V

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Jeeze, this really has caused you some grief. It'll all be good in the end though.

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Well, a genuine clutch master cylinder is £117 - it is made by Sachs, has the Sachs PN on it - same part less VAG logo and part number from Mr Auto was £64, but the rub is it took a painful 4 days to be delivered.

It arrived this afternoon (4th time lucky) it was correct!  Apart from being upside down in the foot well with fixed buckets - The hardest part for re-install was getting the clutch return spring back in, cable ties worked very well to compress the spring:

XAJdPo.jpg

Everything went back together a lot easier than it came apart, reverse bled the clutch line and jumped in and the pedal felt a lot better. It actually felt like its doing something rather than nothing but it is still still not dis-engaging. Bled again and again no real change.

The only thing I can think of is the clutch plate is stuck to the fly wheel or pressure plate or both.

The positive is I now know its not hydraulic  - Tomorrow I am going to pull out the slave and make something to push against the clutch lever from the chassis leg, if that doesn't work I will pull the starter motor out, loosen the pressure plate bolts and see if I can get the clutch plate free.

In desperation I have left the Lupo like this over-night, who knows may be my luck will change!:

86qZ4r.jpg

 

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Clutch plate springs?

Lighter thinner flywheel maybe wants the long rod?

Plate with three holes and wind a bolt through to activate the clutch and take measurements.

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Cheers Rich 

All the removed meat from the flywheel came from the engine side, the face was resurfaced, but suspect that would have been only a 1000th of something removed. i *believe* it’s self adjusting with the slave having more travel than required and the amount of travel dictated by the fluid pushed by the master.

i’m thinking m10 rod, 2 nuts locked together, another nut pushing against metal conduit & some wood to protect the chassis leg

 

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Sounds like a plan.

  • Like 1

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The only thing i can think of now, assuming the clutch pedal force is getting through ok, is that it might be the wrong driven plate.

I used a driven plate from an Audi 100 (same dimensions) for my SDI when I changed it. But the central splined bit had a small lip that just touched the flywheel, which i had to cut off. I guess it might be possible that the kit you got, used a clutch plate from a similar car. I've noticed that there are a hell of a lot of identical plates all with different part numbers- for a lot of different makes and models (fiat, renault, ford etc....). Main difference between them all is the friction material and torque springs.

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On 11/2/2018 at 10:21 PM, LR5V said:

i’m thinking m10 rod, 2 nuts locked together, another nut pushing against metal conduit & some wood to protect the chassis leg

I didnt do this!

Next day, removed the plank from the clutch pedal, it had reverted back to the no feeling and not a hope of selecting gears - So despite being positive it was bled it seems there was still air in the system.

Taking stock of the situation, my drive is a slope trapping any air in the master cylinder and it also falls away to the near side potentially trapping some air in the slave. I jacked up the rear right so the feed on the MC is highest and removed the front left wheel and lowered it down to help further. I watched a video of a guy clamping the slave shaft fully in - I decided to try this, Slave off placed vertical -so any air would go up the line- between drive shaft and gearbox but I couldn't get the shaft to stay clamped - opted for another bleed with the entire line now being higher and occasional pump of the slave rod. All back on the ground, back to the same nearly going into gear - when it has air I cant even get into the reverse gate. 

On 11/3/2018 at 9:48 AM, mk2 said:

The only thing i can think of now, assuming the clutch pedal force is getting through ok, is that it might be the wrong driven plate.

Thanks Mk2  - I was very careful selecting the correct part, I got a Sachs 3000 950 019 kit direct from Germany, all the part numbers even down to the grease were correct from the Sachs E-catalogue and checked when I received it all the way back in March. I did a visual comparison with the old parts too - only thing I regret not doing was slide the plate onto the gearbox input shaft. When the box went back in it didn't slide in it was hard to tighten it to the block, had to tighten around the gearbox - wondering if the plate is jammed on the input shaft (that I did grease) now pressing it hard against the flywheel.

So its box off - At least I can replace the rounded out drive shaft bolts and the over torqued pressure plate bolts - got new ones today from TPS £33. 

Whilst there I asked if there was any change in gearbox spline, there hasn't & also priced out just a pressure plate £115! - that is more than the entire Sachs kit.

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Well Box is off, to do this I had to remove the pressure plate bolts through the starter motor opening, Thanks @Rich for that tip.

I managed to round out several drive shaft bolts  - couldn't get them undone, so I had to drag the long right drive shaft out with the box.

Had to grind off the plate to get a puller on

sSG6mJ.jpg

And off

ae66ZD.jpg

Cant work out what got into the spline of the plate I could pick some of it out but other stuff is so well wedged in I cast pick it out.  I cleaned the input shaft with a wire brush and ran a fine screwdriver along each groove. This is the best I can do with a magnifying picture of my new paper weight!

2hFBnU.png

Only about £30 more for a full clutch kit over just a plate, so just going to replace everything as it has all been under strain for 2 months. First thing I will do is test the plate on the input shaft

Edited by LR5V

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So is that adhesive during manufacture got on the splines? Always test the clutch plate on the input shaft, it just saves grief as sometimes what is in the box isnt what you ordered.

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If you play about with random o20 boxes then it becomes standard practice 

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2 hours ago, Sausage said:

So is that adhesive during manufacture got on the splines? Always test the clutch plate on the input shaft, it just saves grief as sometimes what is in the box isnt what you ordered.

Yes - I know I should have, really was too eager to get it back on the road.

No not glue its shards of metal jammed in the grooves! when I was destroying the plate it has lots of components some not much thicker than foil, wondering if there was something loose or something got into the part while it was waiting to be installed.

1 hour ago, Rich said:

If you play about with random o20 boxes then it becomes standard practice 

I don't play with gearboxes as much as I should - life lesson learnt

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OMG. What a disaster. Did you use some tape or something as an alignment aid? The driven plate should slide easily along the splines. Just a dab of coppaslip inbetween... i'm shocked!

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14 hours ago, mk2 said:

OMG. What a disaster. Did you use some tape or something as an alignment aid? The driven plate should slide easily along the splines. Just a dab of coppaslip inbetween... i'm shocked!

Yes it is.  No tape - got a pukka tool

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Finger!

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Precision fingers.

  • Like 1

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