Bored Rant

[Defcon5]

DIESEL = BETTER MPG = MORE MONEY = MORE ALCOHOL.

Very flawed logic, The fact that you diesel cost more to buy than the equivalent petrol, costs more to service, and costs more to fill negates the gain in MPG unless you do uber-mileage.

I really despair at people who have bought a new car because its cheaper to run. Bought a new Polo Bluemotion you say? Wow 35 quid a year to tax. Thats 70 quid less than your old car. Oh wait, the new car cost 12 grand!

I can only understand having a diesel big car. Small cars use hardly any petrol anyway so why bother?

I agree, the type of driving that one does in a small city car, is not the type of driving that suits a diesel engine.

Edited September 23, 2008 by Defcon5

[cardaft]

Very flawed logic, The fact that you diesel cost more to buy than the equivalent petrol, costs more to service, and costs more to fill negates the gain in MPG unless you do uber-mileage.

Yes, but a diesel holds its value too, so the extra to buy a diesel car isnt an issue, as they usually get more than the petrol on the used market.

Just look at the lupo TDi and 1.4 sport, the diesel is worth much much more!

Servicing doesnt really cost more? For a start you dont have spark plugs to replace, the rest is just like servicing an other car. OK, so in theory they should have the PD oil, but then i get my PD oil from Seat for £20, so thats what you pay for a good qaulity oil anyway.

My TDi costs me far less to drive than my 1.0, Tdis can do around 110 miles plus on £10 of fuel, the petrol will do about 90 miles, which is quite a bit of saving over a year.

However, thats not the main reason i have a diesel, i just love the torque a diesel has, it never feels flat and your usually always in the power band. When the turbo cuts in it gives a nice kick to the performance. All petrols (of a similar size), even if they are faster, 'feel' slower to drive as you dont get that kick.

It depends how you drive and what you prefer driving. I drive petrol and diesel cars of different models fairly often, and i always preter the turbo diesels to the gutless feeling petrols.

I agree, the type of driving that one does in a small city car, is not the type of driving that suits a diesel engine.

LMAO

How so very wrong you are!

I do a lot of motorway type driving, with usually only me in the car. I dont need a big car on a daily basis, when i do i can use a bigger car. But i still want something that can more than hold its own on the motorway along with the big rep cars.

My TDi is most at home on the motorway, it hates going slowly, its grumbly and uses more fuel at 60-65 than it does at 75-80, where it uses less fuel! Its quiet and refined with lots of pull for motorway use. Once im on the motorway i never have to change out of 5th, the torque is enough to pull up to high speeds in 5th.

In petrols im forever having to change down to move into a gap in the fast lane, but in the TDi Arosa i just floor it and im doing a healthy motorway speed before i know it!

In comparisson, the 1.0 and 1.4 sports (as the gearing is so similar) feel high reving, sitting at 80 you can sit and watch the fuel needle drop and its not nearly as quiet or refined as you can hear the engine booming away. At motorway speeds there is no noise from the diesels engine. Actually the only time i notice its a diesel is below 20mph.

I also do a lot of town driving, its not quite as good round the town as it is on the motorway, it takes a while to warm the engine and its not as fun as the 1.0 is to zip around town in, however it can still do 50mpg plus around the town.

Ive done 30K in two years in my TDi, i think that is more than enough to warrant a diesel, but like i say, i have it for its drive as well as its economy. Why would i pay more to drive a gutless petrol

Ive said it before, but having atleast been in or driven the whole lupo range, i still say the TDi is the best all rounder in the (non GTi) lupo/arosa.

So why a small diesel is pointless is totally beyond me

Edited September 23, 2008 by cardaft

[Gazza]

couldnt of said that better my self mate!

i have also done 6000 miles since june car just touching 50k now lol yeah and to £15 worth of diesel i can get around 160 to 180 miles depending on how i drive hehe and about 121.9 a litre

Edited September 23, 2008 by Gazza

[Defcon5]

how so very wrong you are!

I do a lot of motorway type driving, with usually only me in the car. I dont need a big car on a daily basis, when i do i can use a bigger car. But i still want something that can more than hold its own on the motorway along with the big rep cars.

My TDi is most at home on the motorway, it hates going slowly, i

in the TDi Arosa i just floor it and im doing a healthy motorway speed before i know it!

In comparisson, the 1.0 and 1.4 sports (as the gearing is so similar) feel high reving, sitting at 80 you can sit and watch the fuel needle drop and its not nearly as quiet or refined as you can hear the engine booming away.

At motorway speeds there is no noise from the diesels engine.

, its not quite as good round the town as it is on the motorway, it takes a while to warm the engine and its not as fun as the 1.0 is to zip around town in

I meant that a diesel engine is more suited to motorway driving (with which you agree) and that a larger car is more suited to motorway driving (which only an idiot would disagree with), therfore, for long distances a small diesel city car is not the best one for the job. A diesel yes, but not a little one.

Cost wise, compare these two..

Lupo 1.4S Lupo 1.4TDI

BHP 73 73

Torq 126nm 195nm

0-60 11.6 11.9

tax (12mth) 120 120/35 dependant on age

So performace is pretty much the same, from an MPG POV, if the TDI does 110 miles to a tenner, and you do 10000 miles a year it would cost £1254 in fuel (thats with diesel at 115p, I think its something like that?) wheres if the 1.4S does 90 miles to a tenner, it would cost 1189 to do the same mileage.

[Picola]

Id happily go back to a Tdi anyday. The only thing is Ive had one so Id like a diff Tdi model.

[cardaft]

I do agree to an extent, a small diesel isnt good for town use, a free reving, light weight petrol would be better for that job, but then i need a car that can do both motorway and town just as well!

Why do you say a bigger car is better for longer distances? Safety?

Ive been all over the country in mine and its fine, i never feel unsafe in it, and mine doesnt have ABS or anything.

As i said, its as refined as a lot of bigger cars, the seats are comfortable and it easily does 60-65MPG on a good run.

Diesel is around 118.9 and petrol is 106.9 here.

I agree, i doubt there is much in it between running costs, but tax is cheaper and as i say, its more the drive, the refinement, the pulling power on the motorway, and the fact Arosa Tdis are rare!

True, the 1.4S is similar on paper, but i much prefer the drive of the TDI, i supose im just a diesel person. The TDi feels quicker, it may not be, but it feels it, and to me thats what matters.

For some reason i always compare the 1.4 TDi with the 1.4 sport - pricing is more near a Lupo sport (well more than actually) and as is spec too. Also, me being an Arosa person as well as a diesel person, id not fancy the 60bhp 1.4 arosa (as the 1.4 75 was not available in the arosa), there would be no point in going from a 50 to a 60bhp arosa! So the diesel is the only option in my mind.

Edited September 23, 2008 by cardaft

[jon_273]

the type of driving that one does in a small city car, is not the type of driving that suits a diesel engine.

Perhaps the type of driving you do in your small city car suits a petrol engine, but the type of driving I do in my small city car certainly warrants a powerful diesel engine! I personally find the tdi more at home on the motorway than in the city, and this is where I drive it most.

I used to own a Lupo 1.4 75bhp petrol. I now own the 1.4 75bhp diesel, I changed as I much prefer the way it drives, even though on paper is has the same power and performance figures. The two engines are two worlds apart. Yes it cost more, but I didn't buy it to save money. It costs much less in tax and fuel, but a bit more on insurance.

I recently had it remapped and now it really does drive well! I am confident it is equal to a standard lupo sport in terms of performance (ask chris260!).

[LiamD]

Yeah I'd happily have a TDi, Jack's costs him bugger all to run, and since it was an Arosa, it cost a lot less than the VW equivalent, and with a re-map is probably as quick as a Sport where it matters.

We work a similar distance from home, and where I would spend 30 quid a week, he would spend 30 quid a fortnight on fuel, yet have a much faster car.

[jon_273]

Cost wise, compare these two..

Lupo 1.4S Lupo 1.4TDI

BHP 73 73

Torq 126nm 195nm

0-60 11.6 11.9

tax (12mth) 120 120/35 dependant on age

So performace is pretty much the same, from an MPG POV, if the TDI does 110 miles to a tenner, and you do 10000 miles a year it would cost £1254 in fuel (thats with diesel at 115p, I think its something like that?) wheres if the 1.4S does 90 miles to a tenner, it would cost 1189 to do the same mileage.

As I've said, I've owned both of these cars for over a year each, so I've got a fair idea what its like to own them both. I look at it this way:

Local Shell fuel prices:

Petrol = 106.9/litre *4.545 = 4.858605 /gallon

Diesel = 118.9/litre *4.545 = 5.404005 /gallon

Typical economy 1.4s petrol = 45mpg (from personal experience)

Typical economy 1.4 TDI = 60mpg (from personal experience)

10,000 miles per year/45mpg = 222.222 gallons * 4.858605 = £1079.69

10,000/60mpg = 166.667 gallons * 5.404005 /gallon = £900.67

The tdi will always be cheaper to fuel unless the price difference between petrol and diesel increases past a certain point or thempg goes down considerably.

[Defcon5]

Why do you say a bigger car is better for longer distances? Safety?

Would you really choose a Loop/Arosa over something like a mondeo/passat if you were going a long way? I certainly would go with bigger car over mine.

Larger does generally mean safer

@jon 273, your maths look rather better than mine

Edited September 23, 2008 by Defcon5

[dougless]

VW's 1.4 and 1.2, 3 pot TDI engines don't have a balance shaft........

If you look at the schematics for the VW three pot Diesel motor, it has a balance shaft under the crank. Its carried in a sub assembly which is bolted to the underside of the crankcase (I think). I suspect it is the success of this approach that has led to VW now using balancer shafts on their newer four pot diesel motors. I think a three pot 4stroke petrol or Diesel motor without a balancer shaft would be a bit rough. There have been some but they tended to be motorcycles and even most of those use some kind of counter rotating balance shafts. The exception to this would be three cylinder 2strokes which tend to be turbine like in their smoothness.

[cardaft]

Would you really choose a Loop/Arosa over something like a mondeo/passat if you were going a long way? I certainly would go with bigger car over mine.

Larger does generally mean safer

Yup, id probably go with the bigger car, TBH im liking the idea of a big car as a replacement (which wont be due anytime soon!)

We have a BIG car that i could use for long motorway drives, but its a petrol (damn it!), so i either go small and diesel or large and petrol

But still, im more than happy with mine for long drives, its a pretty decent all rounder. Obvioulsy a mondeo/passat is even more refined, but for what it is, i dont think the little TDis do badly at all.

Im liking this thread, a good healthy discussion! I think we all probably wear rose tinted glasses when talking about our own cars, but its got to be said, the TDi loop/arosa is pretty damn good!

Maybe we should have 'bored rant' threads for the rest of the range... so people can air their views

Edited September 23, 2008 by cardaft

[dougless]

I agree, the type of driving that one does in a small city car, is not the type of driving that suits a diesel engine.

Diesels were traditionally used more for city driving because they use so little fuel at tick over, a common condition for cars in cities. Modern Diesels seem to be at home in most situations. My little SDI is surprisingly nippy for a normally aspirated Diesel but requires quick gear changes because the range of usable revs is bit limited. The TDI wins again here with its greater torque and broader range of usable power. However the SDI loopy engine has a shorter stroke than the TDI engine so is surprisingly revy for an oil burner, the SDI gains a little ground against the TDI here. I would also add that good small city cars are equally at home on the motorway as they are in town, especially Diesels because they need less revs for a given speed, a point already made in this thread.

[Gazza]

that balance shaft pops up again lol, didnt some one say that there wasnt one.

could some post the pic up of this shaft?

Maybe we should have 'bored rant' threads for the rest of the range... so people can air their views

Was a good idea hehe dont you think

[dougless]

Taken from here:

http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/printer_319.shtml

Three cylinders, balancer shaft, direct injection with unit injector system, turbocharger with variable turbine geometry, charge air cooling, minimized frictional losses in the valve gear, bearings and pistons, and even an aluminum alloy cylinder block: The development engineers in Wolfsburg pulled out all the stops on this one. The result: the three-cylinder TDI achieves the highest efficiency world-wide for an engine of this type.

This refers to the special alloy version used for the 3L. The 'standard' 3 pot TDI has a cast iron crankcase but I believe it still has a balancer shaft. I seem to remember reading that to develop the 3 pop motor VW just chopped off one cylinder which gives it an asymmetric inlet tract, not much of a problem for a turbo charged vehicle though.

[Gazza]

i thought that the 3L and and the normal tdi were diff engines as in 1.2 and a 1.4, need the proper drawing for the AMF engine me thinks.

Right heres what i have managed to find,

It DOES have a balancer shaft, thats cleared that up then

Edited September 24, 2008 by Gazza