tuning gti

[Guest garvey]

I know i don't have a gti, but in june i will be a fully qualified engineer. so will be getting a lupo.I was wondering how much throttle bodies, cams, headwork,manifold, exhaust, ecu. suitable for road use would be. thanks

[L119 UPO]

8K upwards no doubt if you approach a tuning company. Throttle bodies alone are around 4k fully fitted.

But it would cause you expensive reliability issues, youll hate driving it as a daily, it's just far cheaper and less hassle/losses to buy a new car. Say a MK5 GTI get it remapped and fit an LSD.

Youll find a 1.8T engine transplant much more viable, but you still have to question if it's worth it or not.

The GTI is a great little car just the way it is, the way it's balanced etc and lightweight fun. I think it's a shame to rip the guts out of it and start putting in heavier engines.

I think you should drive one first, and see if you can live with the car before making any far out plans.

[L119 UPO]

Getting a mint fully loaded raven blue 55 plate with 20,000 miles on the clock, then fitting a supercharger and whatever mapping you need i think is an appealing option, so long as you diddnt tune the t!ts out of it.

My brother picked up a 54 plate MK5 GTI for 12 grand the other week, and TBH i think id rather have something more like that if i was going to spend above 10K

[Toi gulp]

I agree the lupo GTi is a fantastic little car, its got plenty of go as standard, I run mine on as high octane fuel as i can get hold of ive got a K&N panel filter, and i always put the best oil i can afford in (5w-30W) like fully synthetic Castrol gtx or Motul you'd be suprised how much better oil can improve your power. Ive also just turned my hot air feed into a cold ram air feed and its made a surprising difference to the engine "sharpness"

Ive only got plans for a BMC Carbon airbox/filter, performance manifold/downpipe and full system and a re-map and that should get the lupo to a safe 150/160BHp and it'll still be drivable. which in 960kilos worth of car should make it fly!

Although if you want to go down that route keep me posted as it would be cool to see the result i do like the idea of throttle bodies though!

Edited January 19, 2008 by Toi gulp

[Matty_Gti]

oil improves power??! hmm not to sure about this

and as for 160bhp from the stuff u said u want and have done i think that figure is a little optimistic personally.

[Lee_]

oil improves power??! hmm not to sure about this

and as for 160bhp from the stuff u said u want and have done i think that figure is a little optimistic personally.

Oils can make a difference, pumping losses in an engine can have a considerable effect on power.

One way round this is by using the correct amount of "good" oil or by going to dry sump.

(anyone done the dry sump before?)

[Toi gulp]

Actually in hindsight i suppose your right about what i said about the anticipated power being 150/160. it would have to be a pretty serious exhaust system to do that however having said that i am thinking about upping the fuel pressure to go with it.

When i say decent oil i mean like £110 quids worth of oil that's thick enough to help the engine but just thin enough to reduce drag on the engine. I appreciate its not a huge power hike but putting nice thin oil in all helps everything to spin up faster. it just means you have to change it more often. lol

[noddy]

Actually in hindsight i suppose your right about what i said about the anticipated power being 150/160. it would have to be a pretty serious exhaust system to do that however having said that i am thinking about upping the fuel pressure to go with it.

When i say decent oil i mean like £110 quids worth of oil that's thick enough to help the engine but just thin enough to reduce drag on the engine. I appreciate its not a huge power hike but putting nice thin oil in all helps everything to spin up faster. it just means you have to change it more often. lol

read this tells you what you need to know

http://forums.clublupo.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=8161

its has 170 bhp on throttle bodies

[L119 UPO]

Ive only got plans for a BMC Carbon airbox/filter, performance manifold/downpipe and full system and a re-map and that should get the lupo to a safe 150/160BHp and it'll still be drivable. which in 960kilos worth of car should make it fly!

Youll see 140bhp at very most from that i think.

[Matty_Gti]

Not convinced on this oil buiness, just dont think that oil will make a power difference, by all means prove me wrong and spend £110 on oil but for me i would much spend that on something else.

I will keep mine running on the oil VW put in at the service and i bet its plenty good enough

[Toi gulp]

How much of a power gain have people got from a new induction and exhaust set up?

the standard gti exhaust looks like one of a 1.4 it certainly isn't vocal the engine makes all the noise. surely an after market exhaust is a lot less restrictive?

Correct me if i'm wrong is it possible to extract 20bhp from a full heat shielded induction and free flow exhaust?

Cams are another point i cant seem to find many for the lupo/polo gti?

[Matty_Gti]

The exhaust side of things varies on quality, although somone did get 12bhp from a 4-2-1 manifold recently, i should imagine a cat back exhaust would provide another 2 or 3 then bmc maybe 1 if a good cold air feed is used.

Cams are available but not from this country, have a search, topics have come up about them before

[Toi gulp]

12bhp from a manifold??? wow!

you should prob get more than 2-3 bhp from the cat back exhaust, the janspeed layout looks right (putting the silencer in the right place for a start) instead of vw's bright idea of what looks like the square 1.4 backbox when theres room for a straight through exhaust. tut.

upped fuel pressure and a new ecu from emerald and mapped properly should give about 7-10% more power aswell.

also a bmc air filter feeding a nice big alloy plenum chamber and ported manifold/head should gain in total a good 25-30bhp from the whole breathing set up??????

[L119 UPO]

Oils can make a difference, pumping losses in an engine can have a considerable effect on power.

One way round this is by using the correct amount of "good" oil or by going to dry sump.

(anyone done the dry sump before?)

Wet sumps vs. dry sumps.

Almost all passenger cars, trucks and SUVs use what's called a wet sump system. If you look at the diagram above you can see the sump (or oil pan) is the lowest part of the engine. In a wet sump system, excess oil drains back into the sump when it has passed through the engine, and the oil pump then sucks it out of the sump and pumps it back to the top of the engine. The advantage of a wet sump is that it's cost effective to build and maintain and it makes oil-checking easy for the average driver. The disadvantage is that cornering and braking can cause the oil to slosh around in the sump. This can cause the oil to not cover the oil pump pickup tube, which could starve the top end of oil, or it could get deep enough in a severe cornering maneuver to bog-down the crank, which is A Bad Thing. To counter these problems, a lot of wet sumps now have baffles in them to stop the oil moving around so much, and for your average road-going consumer-level vehicle, this is a fine compromise.

Dry sumps

When it comes to racing vehicles, wet sumps simply have too many disadvantages. Instead, race engines typically use a dry sump. As its name implies, the sump of the engine is dry - it never fills with oil. In a wet-sump system, the sump has to be large enough to accommodate all the oil from the engine when it is turned off. In a dry sump system, that requirement is gone so the sump can be much much smaller. (In the image on the right, the right-most sump is representative of a dry sump). A smaller sump means the engine can be mounted lower down in the vehicle, which in turn lowers the centre of gravity. So how can this be? Well a dry sump system uses a remote oil reservoir or tank, and a either a second oil pump, or a single multi-stage pump. In a double pump system, one oil pump works just like a wet sump - it distributes oil to the top end of the engine, but it pulls the oil from the reservoir instead of the sump. The second pump scavenges the oil from the sump and returns it to the reservoir. In a single pump system, one pump is either a three- or four-stage pump. It has multiple circuits running off the same pump to pressurise the engine and scavenge oil back from the sump. The advantages of dry sumps for racing become obvious when you examine the design. The engine can be mounted lower in the chassis because of the shallow oil pan. The pumps typically don't run off the crank-driven belts so no engine power is sapped in driving them. The remote tank or reservoir can be pretty much any size you like and be mounted anywhere in the vehicle (usually low down again for centre of gravity reasons). There isn't oil sloshing around in the sump so you don't run the risk of bogging down the crank. For all these reasons, dry sumps are considered to be safer and far more dependable than their wet counterparts. So if it's that much better, why don't you find this system in consumer vehicles? Simple. The increased weight, complexity and cost of having larger or more pumps and a remote reservoir with all the additional high pressure oil lines involved. For a racing team, this isn't an issue, but for Toyota or Ford, adding that sort of cost and complexity to their passenger vehicles is just a no-go.

More info here

http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html

Edited January 19, 2008 by L119 UPO

[Toi gulp]

Anyone know if i can get away with putting the audi s3's plenum chamber and inlet manifold on the lupo's engine? it looks bout the right size, granted the throttle body will have to be audi s3 item and air filter courtesy of bmc????

Secondly is there much difference between the lupo gti's engine and the 1.8t engine bar the obvious?

[dubsy]

go for a 4 branch,performance exhaust, a good enclosed induction kit and shrick cams this should be good for 150bhp. had this set up in my sport before i put the gti motor in apart from sounding amazing the car pulls stronger and further at the top of the rev range when usually you would be changing gear they just make you want to give it some all the time, theyre pricey though but the difference side by side to standard cams is plain to see your paying for the quality. putting the same set up in the gti motor. for me trying to get any more power than this from this motor isnt the best idea trust me ive blown one already, it runs hotter eats more oil and hunts constantly on tickover, 150 bhp in a car this size feels amazing i no other people have got more from theirs through supercharging and putting on turbos and i take my hat off to them but theres more to go wrong and when things go bang its a very expensive fix so for reliability and longevity id stick to this figure

[Toi gulp]

Totally agree with your last point, to finish a race first, first you have to finish. and at that point 156bhp/ton makes the lupo a serious road car. in fact the lupo is damn good with acceleration and to make the most of it track days are essential, which really ups ur running costs.

vw obviously wanted a naturally aspirated screamer so thats the way it'll stay. with a 11.5 compression ratio it makes no sense to me to force feed it, but at least turbo's are the cheaper way to more power.........

[Dark]

from when i have had mine rolling roaded several times, the testers say that they think a cheapish way to gain power would just be to raise the rev limit with a custom ecu map/chip. as it always makes peak power right when the limiter kicks in at 7krpm, and they said by the lines of the graphs it wasnt about to tail off, so more to be had from that simple mod. generic maps/serial ports cant raise linit though so would need a piggyback that can possibly the unichip, or a proper after market ecu. unichip would be about £400 i think mapped and rolling roaded, cheapest way if it can be done.

Edited January 21, 2008 by omglagger

[Toi gulp]

hmmm interesting point. yay peak power....umphhh rev limiter doh!

[TomLS]

Raise it to 10k, that'll be a laugh!

If the v-tech can do it, why can't you...

[Tallika_Fan]

go for a 4 branch,performance exhaust, a good enclosed induction kit and shrick cams this should be good for 150bhp. had this set up in my sport before i put the gti motor

Alright mate, out of interest do you know what bhp you were pulling when you had this setup in the sport?

Cheers

Pete

[Tigz™]

Raise it to 10k, that'll be a laugh!

If the v-tech can do it, why can't you...

Because VW built it.

[dubsy]

had it rolling roaded at ron perrys kicked out 122 bhp nearly the same as the gti although it was a little screamer it always feeled it was at the peek of what the engine was capable of. never felt as quick as the gti though probably down to the torque the gti delivers. most sport drivers (i know i was one) want their cars to be as quick as the gti but in all honesty they never will be the money you spend on trying to make the sport nearly as quick as the gti will be better spent on just putting in a polo gti motor, the polo boys are always crashing into things so theres plenty about, you have an instant 25bhp and a better base to start from

[Tigz™]

Agreed /\/\/\

The Polo GTI lump I fitted to my 1.0 used the same loom as the Lupo, so with ecu, clocks and keys would be an easy transplant.

I think I spent less than £200 on my spare engine with loom, pedal box and ECU.

[Toi gulp]

the polo gti engine's the same as the lupo gti engine isnt it?