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Lupo Gti Supercharging Shopping List


Keal
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Hello,

I am looking into supercharging my Gti.

I am taking my time and reading into a lot of the older posts and other forums as I would like to get it right.

Basically I am trying to get help to compile a list of components I will either need or would be recommended to have.

So far I have the following

Eaton m45 Teflon coated charger

Belts and pulleys (best to go for?)

Light/small/hidden but efficient intercooler

Induction pipe work

Forged internals (unsure if needed?)

Ecu setup (which is best?)

Remap

Upgraded cams (which is best?)

Stage 1 or 2 clutch

Heat and boost gauges

Dump valve (unsure if needed?)

Exhaust system and manifold (already fitted Caspers old one)

Currently got BMC induction kit

Also interested to see what issues people have had and how they have overcome them.

Please try and keep negative comments I a minimum, I am not a mechanic so may say a few stupid or incorrect things.

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At last! Some who doesn't need to be spoon fed! :thumbup:

You'll deff need bigger injectors, can't help on flow rate, some might be able to help on that matter. (bigger is usally better)

Forged internals are a good thing, depends on how much boost you plan on running, more boost = more likely tomelt the standard stuff.

If the pistons are lower compression than standard then you won't need a decompression plate.

A quick google seems to suggest that dump/blow off valves are not needed for superchargers.

That's all I can help with. Don't take anything I've posted as gospel though, much more used to how turbo set ups work.

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How are you going to bracket the charger, are you doing it the same as Casper ?

Love threads like this, well thought out request for advice.

People take note, this is how it's done.

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Dump valve isn't needed with a supercharger so strike it off your list, that useds to keep a turbo spinning when changing gear, but as a charger is (normally) belt driven its always spinning & matching the engine revs.

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Thanks guys, nice to see some enthusiasm :)

I have read mixed views on dump valves and different types. Some people say its a waste of time as it can't reverse the airflow through the supercharger as you can with a turbo. But other people have said it can be used to adjust the boost or to dump it when you're not requiring it. I'm sure that as the eaton 45 doesn't generate massive boosts it should be fine without one.

And scotty I am planning on installing it similar to Caspers using the air con mount location, seems the best place for it in my opinion and looks good sites there. Casper seemed to have his head screwed on from what I have read in his posts but I heard he had a few issues with it but have yet to find out what.

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And thanks to the guy with the red 1.4s.

I will probably look into forged internals as it can hurt to have these anyway. Same with the clutch. May get the engine reconditioned too. I am still not sure on injectors though as I have read numerous times that the Gti ones are fine, although I am no expert so will take your advice and look into that a bit more. Not sure how much boost it will run yet but I don't want to push the engine to far, something comfortable will be fine and go from there.

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Keal, you sir deserve a medal. Thanks for asking correctly!

Casper is the man to ask as he did his... I would suggest getting him via Facebook as I'm not sure how often he comes on here.

In relation to the forged internals, I know of a supercharged on that was basically a standard engine with the extras bolted on and he never bothered with internals. Personally if you're doing it yourself and you aren't rushing then do it all. Makes sense :)

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I do occasionally make an appearance.

Seems you have read in to it and understand what is needed, unlike most people on here that ask these sort of questions.

The main issue i had, and seems to be a common thing with the M45 charger is heat soak and intake temperatures. The reason i had this problem was because i used a raceland manifold where the other charged cars used a standard GTi manifold. The headers on the raceland come out of the manifold further before dropping down which brought the charger in close proximity with the manifold and transferred a hell of a lot of heat, you can only lift the charger up so far before it hits the underside of the bonnet.

This was one of the reasons why i destroyed 2 chargers, as the heat causes the charger vanes to expand. This then causes more heat due to the added friction and they expand again, and you basically get a thermal runaway, i snapped a snout shaft on one and killed a roller bearing set in the other. The other reason was i was trying to get as much boost as i could from it, so i had a small charger pulley. This also compounded the heat issues.

Make the intake snout for the charger as big as you can, IIRC we gas flowed my head after the headwork and calculated that the charger would need to flow over 600CFM at max rpm to get the boost levels i wanted so you need as much airflow as you can get as this is the top limit for the M45. That figure may be slightly wrong though as it was a while ago now and ive slept a few times since then.

I had a look at mounting the charger where you want to mount it, in the aircon mounting area and i didnt think it would fit because of the intake the the charger and the exhaust manifold, You may have found a way round that so go for it if you can fit it there. This is where i was going to mount the rotrex as it was alot smaller before i saw sence and sold up.

Dump valve question, personally i would use a Recirc valve. Do not under any circumstance not use anything as this will overheat the charger as you will be using it as a compressor when WOT and as a vacuum pump when its closed, It will destroy the charger eventually, and they were never designed to do this. The reason behind the Recirc valve is because you want to use the the M45 and it will be in close proximity to the exhaust you want to keep airflow going through it when you have closed throttle to keep cooling air running through the charger. A nice big port recirc valve located close to the inlet manifold after the intercooler ported back in to the intake side of the charger will be ideal to keep temps down.

I do not know of any other GTi engine that has used an M45 and made over 200bhp, i know it was said that AndyP's made it but im 100% sure it didnt, as it never went on to a standalone ECU, and from what i remember was only running 4-6psi of boost and does not have forged internals nor a decompression plate so in that set up could never make that sort of power. We know of a french guy that melted a standard set of pistons at 7psi with 180bhp.

So the choice would be with you on that one. There are forged sets available off the shelf for the ARC engine which is the same dimensions as the AVY engine, but they have quite a big compression drop on them IIRC, around 8:1 so you will want alot of boost on them! - I ran 8.5:1 IIRC

John

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Thank you piers for the advice. I will probably push towards getting forged internals but from what I've read they're not too easy to find. I will keep looking and see what I can find and follow Caspers lead on pistons. Don't see the point in doing half a job and its not a case of money as I want to make the most of the AVY engine rather than stick a bigger lump in.

Thank you for the post Casper/John, full of useful information as always ;)

It might be your race land manifold that I have on now (had to get a different alternator to fit because the clip was right in the way due to a tiny bit of difference in design!) it does sound and look great though! I am looking at getting the manifold wrapped in a zircotec coating from demon tweaks as my friend has been recommended it for his 300+ break Ibiza cupra and on top of that I was going to fit a heat shield in place and possibly a ram air vent to force cold air onto the charger.

I agree with you about the recirc valve as that is exactly what I have read on other pages, I believe the g60 runs that setup too as standard.

There are 3 locations I am looking at fitting the charger depending where is best, above the exhaust manifold and altinator, above the intake manifold but it may be too close to the throttle body and awkward for the belts, and below the intake manifold but looks tight for space even if I move a few bits. Ideally above the exhaust manifold as it would be easier to pipe in the intercooler and fit the belts but need to drastically reduce heat soak as you've explained as I do not want to buy spare chargers :P

I will have to research more on what i want to be running and I did read that you changed to a rotrex charger so may look at that route rather than the eaton.

The car is so light I'm not sure I would want to run more than 200break anyway, just want it to feel a bit more responsive when i need it. Not a fan of turbos as I don't like the surge of power.

Keal.

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Just to add, I have noticed a lot of people exaggerate what they are putting down so always take it with a pinch of salt ;) unless its got a RR Printout or been on the SantaPod strip.

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A dump valve dumps the air pressure out of the intake system when the throttle is closed to prevent boost trying to flow back through the turbo.

Dump valve isn't needed with a supercharger so strike it off your list, that used to keep a turbo spinning when changing gear, but as a charger is (normally) belt driven its always spinning & matching the engine revs.

Sorry my mistake Deadmetal, I should it made it clearer than I did for anybody that didn't understand what the real use is for (not just for making a noise on the fast & furious) ,rather than the difference between a dump or recirculating valve as most people assume they are the same thing

Better summary would be - Is useds to keep a turbo spinning when changing gear by releasing the built up pressure, otherwise back pressure of the forced air could slow down or even stall the turbine blades

A dump value it's pretty **** way of controlling it anyway, as with a recirc at least pass some of the airflows back to inlet side of the turbo

I wasn't aware of the cooling issues with a supercharger as Casper pointed out, or that a recirc is still ideally required in this type of setup even though its driven by the crank - learn something new every day.

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Keal,

If you have my manifold then thats great, as i had an adaptor fitted on the side to fit a WV EGT sensor in to one header which is great for mapping and preventing the engine melting, it can be used to retard the ignition when it reaches a certain temperature, believe it or not the highest prolonged temperatures are actually achieved when crusing at partial throttle due to a lean burn at this point for fuel economy.

Ive herd mixed reviews on zircotec coatings, but it will help in your case. But to what extent i dont know.

You can use a rotrex charger without a recirc valve if you wanted, they have been designed for this to be done, it makes a good chattering noise from what im told!

John

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Thanks John.

I will look into the rotrex charger option :) and will see what my mates exhaust coating turns out like first ;)

Lol thanks rich for the advice but I think it's the fun of getting it to work properly and being different and that its not a 20v that everyone has. I could try and squeeze a g60 in there or vr6 or something similar but a supercharger appeals most.

Keal.

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Can i ask why you have decided to supercharge and not turbo?

Edit: sorry just read what you said.

If you have the boost mapped against throttle angle as the user torque request element of the algorythm, it means that you only run high amounts of torque when you want it, that way it wont run away with you like a lot of turbo cars do, just a thought.

Edited by r0ssi_tdi
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It's just a preference really. I prefer the noise and constant power gain of a supercharger over the sudden high end boost of a turbo when it comes to driving on road, could do both eventually but it's limited in space and gets complicated. I would consider fitting a g60 engine and supercharger but its probably just as awkward to fit and get it working.

I am not completely sure what you mean but sounds like something to consider and look into.

I did look at the g60 rods but apparently they take a bit of fabricating to fit.

Keal.

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Hes talking about boost control against throttle angle, turbo engines use it because they can utilise the waste gate to control the boost, it can be mapped against throttle angle, this is to control the torque output of the engine at given throttle angles to make things more drivable.

But ive only seen it used on turbo cars and dont think it would work with a charger.

Mapping against throttle angle is all well and good but pressure differs with temperature leading to inconsistent power outputs, my preferred method would be manifold pressure using inlet temperature as an offset correlation.

Thats just me though, everyone probably has there own methods.

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