Ibanezedd Posted January 3, 2017 Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 Hi all, I am new to the Lupo ownership and i was wondering if anyone would have any suggestions to what is going on with mine! The car is a 2002 1.7 sdi with the aku engine? covered 160000 miles and is very clean The fault is intermittent and quite unusual! Basically, the car starts fine, will drive for approximately 20-40 minutes, and then the Glow plug coil light will flash, the engine will die and everything will go off, including power steering and brakes, (The cluster stays lit), I will then have to pull over, and sometimes the engine will fire up straight away, but it can also take up to 5 minutes of waiting between 1 minute cranks to get it to go again! Then it's repeat, it will go for 20-40minutes and cut out and so on and so forth. I have had the alternator tested and it charging perfectly so it can't be a battery fault. I had the car code read, and the reader returned the codes/values: 1563/ 17971/ P1563 Quantity adjuster, Lower Limit Attained 1570/ 17978/ P1570 Contr.Module Locked I had the codes cleared but the problem still arises I have also changed the 109? relay (Pain in the a**e job) but that didn't fix it! Can anyone shed some light as it's driving me absolutely nuts and it's quite dangerous sometimes Thanks Edd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sausage Posted January 3, 2017 Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 (edited) http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/17978/P1570/005488 http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/17971/P1563/005475 The default action for this sort of thing is relay 109 but if you have changed that for a good one then it is time to get the multimeter out and check your wiring to the ecu, fuel pump (injection pump), relays etc. Edit, the constant cranking sounds like fuel pump (injection pump) so check the wiring and start shopping around for another one. Edited January 3, 2017 by Sausage 2 words Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibanezedd Posted January 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 Hi, Thanks for your reply! I forgot to add, when i changed the 109 relay it had one pin less on the new one that the old one? I'm fine with the mechanics side of things but when it comes to automotive electrics i'm not so sharp, should the 109 that you replace be like for like on pins? Or being a newer part would it be slightly different? Thanks Edd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sausage Posted January 3, 2017 Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 (edited) No idea, but if you compare the old and new one they usually have pin out diagram on them so that might tell you: Making sure this 109 relay is correct seems like a good place to start though... Edited January 3, 2017 by Sausage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk2 Posted January 3, 2017 Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 I was going suggest 109 too... Hmm. I wonder if the ignition switch could cause those symptoms. Or even a loose main fuse in battery box thing. Check that big plug near the dip stick. A loose connection there could cause that. If you find it let us know. It's an unusual one.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibanezedd Posted January 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 Yes i will check the 109 relay again I went outside tonight to try the solenoid on the diesel pump (this is what the 109 relay controls when you turn the key to the on position) So i put a wire from the positive terminal to the solenoid on the pump and the solenoid clicked on fine and when i took the wire away it clicked off, i then disconnected the solenoid and then tried to start the car, of course it wouldn't start. I then had a friend touch the solenoid with the wire while i turned the key, and it fired up! as soon as he took the wire off, it shut down so, its looking to be the 109 relay again, or something more in depth with the electrics, perhaps an immobilizer controller as that shuts the solenoid off too when the immobilizer isn't working as it should? Sadly it's too dark and i will have to look at it tomorrow Thanks to everyone for your reply's Cheers Edd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wehey Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 (edited) I had these exact symptoms on my tdi and it turned out to be the cam position sensor. But I guess if you haven't got a code then prob not, but I thought it might be worth mentioning. Very scarry when it happens on the motorway ?? Edited January 4, 2017 by wehey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 109 bypass is where it is at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibanezedd Posted January 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 Yeah it's quite interesting when you are going along and your brakes are near non existent! a 109 bypass? as in run a cable from the solenoid to a switch to the battery? Thanks Edd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 I used my bypass to power the ECU. It's good for cutting the engine when going downhill and makes for fantastic economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk2 Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 5 hours ago, Rich said: It's good for cutting the engine when going downhill and makes for fantastic economy. Doesn't the SDI have 'overrun' in the standard map? All other diesels I know do- or at least modern ones....! Ever tried left foot braking in the SDI? It cuts out and runs in idle mode.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 I mean on the tdi, not running absolutely no fuel. four pin brake light system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk2 Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 Does the TDI have electronically controlled injection timing? If it does, what happens when the power is switched on again? I've experimented with the SDI. If you cut power (with the ignition) going downhill, then simply switch on again (in gear all the time), the engine makes a right din for a moment. All very strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobieus_uk Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 you problem defo shouts 109 relay, from memory the relay should have 4 pins on it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skezza Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 Relay 109. There are different versions to be fair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk2 Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) 13 hours ago, Skezza said: Relay 109. There are different versions to be fair If the wrong one was fitted, wouldn't it just not work at all? Being an intermittent problem, my guess now that a new 109 is in place, wouldn't it be that the problem is somewhere else? Edited January 6, 2017 by mk2 fix grammar and typo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skezza Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 The original part is a poor design, but you can still get them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibanezedd Posted January 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 Hi guys, sorry have been a bit quiet! Turns out the 109 relay is hard to get and most car parts places like parkers or MVC can't really get them! Luckily there is a small car parts company in rugby called Car and Commercial and they had one on shelf that someone had ordered and never collected, awesome. Anyway. All in all I have fitted the relay and thought the problems had gone, but earlier today I was sat in the car for about 15 minutes while it was idling, all was fine then suddenly the revs fluctuacted (bouncing) I'd almost say it was hunting but it only did it for a couple of seconds every 20 ish seconds, then randomly it just turned off! I turned the ignition off and restarted it, and now it has the little yellow coil light flashing. I think the 109 relay may or may have not been a problem but it looks more towards a fueling issue the way it fluctuated and then just died while idling? Anyone else had or heard of this problem? And thanks for all the input! Thanks Edd (I have added a photo of the car! Needs a clean!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sausage Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 (edited) Assuming the codes are read with a different reader and software then get your self a £5 kkl lead of ebay and run vcds lite on an old laptop or find someone with vcds (vagcom). It may well pick up other codes that your reader missed and help point the direction you need to go. VCDS is what you need, seen other readers miss codes before on here. If you suspect fuelling issues then look at the fuel filter and if it looks years old (rusty) then replace that for starters, you might want to open the drain on the bottom of it and see what comes out, should just be clean diesel, but might be water, get it on your fingers so you can feel it taste it etc. Nice colour btw... Edited January 6, 2017 by Sausage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibanezedd Posted January 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 The fuel filter on it is nearly new from looking at it I will drain it anyway to see what comes out the inside of it though Yeah it seems to be one of those problems I am going to have to catch at the right point on the software to see what is actually happening! The car has clear fuel lines to the filter engine and return, and there are small air bubbles in there, would that affect it at all if for instance the car was sat idling and a big air bubble got in there? I'm not too good with diesels but I know they compress the diesel as to petrols that can ignite petrol or fumes regardless Yeah, I'm not sure what I think to the colour ? Thanks Edd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sausage Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 (edited) Someone has had issues in the past as they have put clear lines on it to spot air bubbles most likely. If i suspect air in the fuel it is the 1st thing i do. Tiny air bubbles are fine, they will accumulate into larger ones, if you have regular large bubbles then they will start to cause loss of power and misfire and if they are big enough it will cut out. So if you rev the engine and it is forming long bubbles (several inches) in the fuel lines you have an issue. Excessive air can be due to blocked fuel strainer in the fuel tank, forcing the injection pump to suck harder and draw in air. It can be the leak off pipes on the injectors if they are tired and worn, or anywhere else there is a leak like pipe joints, pump gaskets etc. Edited January 6, 2017 by Sausage many words Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk2 Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 I can't prove it, but I have hunch that air bubbles in the filtered supply pipe cause problems. With both my SDIs, they ran worse before I changed the fuel filter seals (but still with the old filters). Now that I have no air bubbles, both engines run sweet. If air gets into the diesel pump system, it 'can' cause problems. There is usually enough flow to displace the air, but only up to a point.... Worth swapping the little seals, as they are pennies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sausage Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 Correct, ideally you want no air, but if you have a few tiny bubbles it isnt worth worrying about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk2 Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 Just to mention... If a diesel engine gets fuel, it'll run. Injectors generally last forever. There are no significant other things in a diesel engine that affect it. Injection pumps also last. Engine power is determined by fuel. More fuel, more power. There is no throttle valve like in a petrol engine. Black smoke means not enough air, caused by blocked air filter. That's about it.... Very simple engine the SDI. So usually if there's a running problem, its caused by lack of fuel. Or the diesel shut off valve (in the diesel injection pump). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wehey Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 2 hours ago, Sausage said: Assuming the codes are read with a different reader and software then get your self a £5 kkl lead of ebay and run vcds lite on an old laptop or find someone with vcds (vagcom). It may well pick up other codes that your reader missed and help point the direction you need to go. VCDS is what you need, seen other readers miss codes before on here. What he says..... My generic reader came up with nothing. I brought a lead and loaded up the free VCDS and got this code with almost identical symptoms to you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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