UgS Posted October 2, 2016 Report Share Posted October 2, 2016 Hello everyone, My girlfriend bought Lupo 3L 1.2 TDI. 2000 y. Problem is that steering in slow speed or parking is hard even for me. Does it has to be like this? If not, where can be problem? Also, seller told that in this model there is no power steering. Is it possible to put power steering from other lupo model to this? Thanks in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skezza Posted October 2, 2016 Report Share Posted October 2, 2016 Not many 3Ls have power steering. If it has stop/start function then it doesn't have power steering. Better Mpg. Can you fit it? No idea. I think the reason they didn't was all down to stop start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk2 Posted October 2, 2016 Report Share Posted October 2, 2016 The answer is of course yes. Depends on how much time and effort you want to put in though.... Rack, steering column, hoses, pump, pump mounting, pulleys and belts. Oh and a hydraulic fluid tank. I think that's everything!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skezza Posted October 2, 2016 Report Share Posted October 2, 2016 29 minutes ago, mk2 said: The answer is of course yes. Depends on how much time and effort you want to put in though.... Rack, steering column, hoses, pump, pump mounting, pulleys and belts. Oh and a hydraulic fluid tank. I think that's everything!? There are obviously problems with the power steering and stop/start, I just wonder how awkward it'd be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk2 Posted October 2, 2016 Report Share Posted October 2, 2016 If you're in gear, the engine keeps running doesn't it? So,I imagine if you're manoeuvring, with the clutch being pressed, it'd keep running I think... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk2 Posted October 2, 2016 Report Share Posted October 2, 2016 Uh hang on, a 3l is auto.... So forget my clutch theory..... So i don't know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlipFlops Posted October 3, 2016 Report Share Posted October 3, 2016 Are you deffo sure that the power steering pump hasn't failed or on its way out? I had one go on my golf a few years back and i could hardly turn the wheel. It was near on impossible when stationary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UgS Posted October 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2016 17 hours ago, mk2 said: If you're in gear, the engine keeps running doesn't it? So,I imagine if you're manoeuvring, with the clutch being pressed, it'd keep running I think... 17 hours ago, mk2 said: Uh hang on, a 3l is auto.... So forget my clutch theory..... So i don't know! In any case if its manual or it is auto, engine still always running, no?. Engine stops, when ECO mode is on and brake pedal is pushed. But if only this would be problem we can drive without ECO mode, actually we don't use it anyway. And also when engine stops running during ECO mode, that means we are standing still and don't need manoeuvering. I'm interested is power steering will live with this engine? I know that power steering in lupo is electro-hydraulic. How it works? Does it need to be wired with lupos brains(cars computer, dont know actually, how it calls right in english) or it just need to be powered only by battery? and... 23 hours ago, mk2 said: Rack, steering column, hoses, pump, pump mounting, pulleys and belts. Oh and a hydraulic fluid tank. I think that's everything!? ... are these parts can be fitted on my engine without drastic changes? I mean, are engines in lupos without pwr steering and with pwr steering are the same, and with the same places for mountings, fittment and etc.? 8 hours ago, FlipFlops said: Are you deffo sure that the power steering pump hasn't failed or on its way out? I had one go on my golf a few years back and i could hardly turn the wheel. It was near on impossible when stationary. If I get you question right, your problem doesnt fit me, because in my lupo there is no power steering. :/ Also, maybe i can get some lighter steering with what i have now? Maybe my steering can be lubricated somewhere and that could help even a little? Again, thanks in advance for anyones help. I know, that my questions kind hard to answer, but power steering parts aren't cheap, and i want to know is it possible to do this "project" before buying any parts, which appears can be not fitted in my car... :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobieus_uk Posted October 3, 2016 Report Share Posted October 3, 2016 check the obvious, jack front up and see how easy it is then, if it still feels tight then your fighting against worn components and that wont help matters at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skezza Posted October 3, 2016 Report Share Posted October 3, 2016 OK, let me make this simple: IF YOUR 3L HAS ECO MODE, IT DOESN'T HAVE POWER STEERING. It has ECO mode (UgS has said so) therefore, don't test your power steering, don't get under the car and check if parts are worn, or lift it in the air, because it doesn't have it. Very simple. You'll be wasting your time. Now, if you're going to retrofit it, then as mk2 said, there's a fair few parts that need to be plumbed in, and then you may need to code your ECU to handle those parts. I did have a quick Google for you and there are people who have retrofitted it, but there isn't a huge amount of detail. Pump/bracket will need to come off something similar, but unfortunately a 1.4TDi isn't similar enough from what I gather. Maybe contact the Lupo3L club in Netherlands, they're very knowledgeable on all things 3L and have done some crazy crazy work on them, including making them 2L That said, Volkswagen clearly had some problems with the power steering system and the stop/start. Let's not forget, the Lupo 3L was perhaps one of the first cars to employ stop/start technology and it was a pretty crude implementation at best. I'm sure there's someone in the world who knows more, but perhaps it was to do with the pump being switched on and off repeatedly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skezza Posted October 3, 2016 Report Share Posted October 3, 2016 This might help you (from here http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_218.pdf): The electro-mechanical power steering The Lupo 3L can be equipped with power steering. As power steering increases fuel consumption, Volkswagen has developed a new electro-mechanical power steering system in association with Delphi. With this system, the vehicle consumes less fuel than a vehicle with hydraulic power steering. The Lupo 3L has an electronic power-assisted steering system based on the steering system used in the Lupo SDI. Its advantage over a hydraulic power steering system lies in the fact that it is lighter and only operates when required by the driver. The steering system is made up of the following component parts: - steering column switch and steering-wheel lock - steering column - electric motor - worm gear with torque and wheel angle sensors - control unit, and - universal joint shaft A description of the electro-mechanical power steering can be found SSP 225. Vehicles with electronic power steering do not have a stop/start function. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk2 Posted October 3, 2016 Report Share Posted October 3, 2016 Do my two SDIs have electro-hydraulic PAS? I thought its bog standard hydro.... I've not looked in any detail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UgS Posted October 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2016 Ok, guys. from all data i have found, if I get it right - in 3L lupos there are no HYDRAULIC power steering. It has two options: no power steering at all or electro-MECHANICAL (not HYDRAULIC, but MECHANICAL). So... On 10/2/2016 at 0:55 PM, mk2 said: Rack, steering column, hoses, pump, pump mounting, pulleys and belts. Oh and a hydraulic fluid tank. ...these parts I don't need anymore.http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_225.pdf So, putting this kind of steering looks simple, only problem i can see by document in the link, 12 page, scheme - how to get Road speed signal from control unit. Any ideas? I cant find lupos 3L Control Unit wiring diagram. Maybe there is connection for this kind of signal. For warning lamp maybe possible to avoid Control Unit and put simple lamp. People, who are good in electronics could tell is this possible at all. My skills are not in electronics category, so I'm in the dark alley again. What are your thoughts, guys? Am I thinking the right direction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk2 Posted October 5, 2016 Report Share Posted October 5, 2016 Looked yesterday. It is bog standard PAS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derv Posted October 6, 2016 Report Share Posted October 6, 2016 The 3L doesn't really need PAS, and it will just use more fuel. Electro-mechanical power steering would draw too much power when stopped, like if you wiggled the steering. The rear heated screen also turns off when the engine is stopped, and on some models the headlights. I only discovered these things when I removed my gearbox ECU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk2 Posted October 6, 2016 Report Share Posted October 6, 2016 What happens if with the electromechanical system, the motor stops working? Does the steering simply lock solid or can the car be brought safely to a stop? With hydraulic, you just have to work harder.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derv Posted October 7, 2016 Report Share Posted October 7, 2016 (edited) The electro-mechanical power steering includes a worm gear, and they cannot be driven backwards. For me the lack of PAS is a great feature of the 3L. I'm already looking at deleting it on my other Lupo. You just have to adopt the old way of steering, and accept that it will be hard when not moving. You only need to get to car rolling slightly, and it becomes easy enough. In my experience electro-mechanical PAS feels even worse than hydraulic. Edited October 7, 2016 by Derv missing word Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAB Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 On 03/10/2016 at 6:18 PM, Skezza said: IF YOUR 3L HAS ECO MODE, IT DOESN'T HAVE POWER STEERING. Wrong! Eco mode doesn't just switch on/off stop/start. If it has PAS, it will also have Eco mode, in fact all 3L's will have Eco mode. Eco mode influences when gear changes are made and whether the auxiliary heater and A/C (if fitted) are used. Electric steering AND Stop/Start would have been too much of a draw on the battery. RAB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk2 Posted October 24, 2016 Report Share Posted October 24, 2016 On 10/07/2016 at 9:09 AM, Derv said: The electro-mechanical power steering includes a worm gear, and they cannot be driven backwards. For me the lack of PAS is a great feature of the 3L. I'm already looking at deleting it on my other Lupo. You just have to adopt the old way of steering, and accept that it will be hard when not moving. You only need to get to car rolling slightly, and it becomes easy enough. In my experience electro-mechanical PAS feels even worse than hydraulic. The engineer part of me wonders why they simply didn't use a standard hydraulic system, but modified. I've seen a system with a variable magnetic clutch that can fully, partially or completely connect or disconnect the power pulley from the pump shaft. It was an old system used by BMW to give variable assist. Above about 10mph, it used to completely disconnect the power steering. Below 5 it was Max assist. Best of both worlds. Power saving and fuel efficient! A bit like how ac systems work in cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skezza Posted October 24, 2016 Report Share Posted October 24, 2016 @RAB Cheers for correcting that, so Eco mode remains on all 3L's, but simply those with power steering have Eco Mode - Stop/Start. I'll rephrase then, if your car has stop/start, it doesn't have PAS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derv Posted October 24, 2016 Report Share Posted October 24, 2016 I think it's probably down to weight saving, when you think of the trouble VW went to on other components to save a few grams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAB Posted November 27, 2016 Report Share Posted November 27, 2016 The Audi equivalent of the 3L, the A2 1.2Td does have hydraulic power steering and Stop/Start. There probably wasn't room for this on the Lupo. The absence of Stop/Start on the Lupo 3L with PAS is probably due to the unacceptable simultaneous drain on the battery of starting and operating the power steering motor. RAB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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