Strange, Sudden Handling Issue

[Lupo675]

Hi all,

Been a while since I've started any threads but having some trouble with my Lupo GTI (again...).

A few weeks ago the handling suddenly went strange and started getting the following symptoms;

- felt like a flat tyre

- the car was tram-lining

- the steering felt quite movable through fast corners (as opposed to planted/solid)

- whilst accelerating hard if a bump or pothole was touched the car would try to force it's self in that bumps direction (bump steer).

It's an odd sensation, almost like one minute the steering feels planted then suddenly it feels loose (but not like it's understeering, this feels more uncontrollable than that). It's not a consistent problem either. Though it just doesn't feel like it used to at all. Feels more unstable/un-safe.

I've had the suspension control arms replaced as the bushes were pushing out of them, had new hub ball joints done too as these had to be replaced and also had new tyres fitted on front (the ones I had were crap and I wanted rid anyway - this has helped but not much). It has also, obviously, been tracked but the problem still exists.

Any ideas are more than welcome, because this work is not cheap to have done and also...I just hate driving the car when it feels like this. It's not fun, just feels sh*t.

Someone suggested I have the trail arm bushes looked at?

So please, suggestions?

Edited July 18, 2015 by Lupo675

[Pete]

First-what's tram lining

Second-wheel bearing? Top mount strut?

[Skezza]

Is it wobbling at all?

[Sausage]

If you cant find anything at the front then trailing arms at the back sounds like a suspect.

I'd have put this on a level area handbrake off and rocked hard each wheel in and out at the top and then quarter to three to try and find play, then try again each wheel in the air.

If it "suddenly" came on then why would that be? Wear takes time, so usually gives warning so it sounds like something has broken or changed rapidly like coming undone.

It felt like a flat tyre, where at the back? I suspect so if it felt like it was tramlining. If it's suddenly come on then it could be fuel on the tyre.

[carrera-gt]

sounds like steering rack mounting might be loose or worn

[Lupo675]

Cheers for the rapid replies guys!

Tram lining feels like the car is holding itself to a line you dont want it too, kind of like when you go on a highly cambered road and the car drags itself from one side to another and feels like it's on 'rails' ... That what I think of it as anyway.

Pete - Cheers will check those out!

The car isnt wobbling really, the steering is a little vibey but not sure I'd call it wobbling.

I agree that wear takes time so that what made me think I may have knocked the tracking out or something by hitting a big bump or similar but I dont think that's it. A bush could've popped out or something somewhere I guess.

It wasn't / isn't due to a flat tyre though, that was just describing the feeling.

The steering just feels heavy at points then goes light at other points, it feels inconsistent.

Wondered if it might be power steering or steering rack (@carrera-gt)

Cheers!

[Silver!]

Pete I don't believe you've never heard of tram lining. Bet you've experienced it.

Camber can seriously affect tram lining. When I originally fitted lowering springs to my Arosa, i had way too much camber on the fronts; tram lining was horrendous, to the point that touching a white line pulled me over the road.

[Pete]

Ray tram lining to me is summat to do with hair styles! The above symptom to me I know as misaligned tracking, so I still go with my original train of thought, if you've not needed to top up your pas fluid then you're unlikely losing any through the seals, the pump could be faulty I suppose but you'd usually notice a rumbling noise along with it failing, as you've not mentioned that I doubt that's the case either.

Did you definitely have gti bottom ball joints fitted??

[Pete]

Same goes for bottom arms. The amount of places that fit non gti bits to gti's by mistake is crazy.

[Sausage]

If you have variable steering effort then it's at the front end. Test the rack and track rod ends for play and the rack for smooth operation. I'd have thought loose or broken mounts anywhere would give knocking and clunking and you'd feel it thru the wheel.

Not sure if these have a UJ on the column or not but they can go stiff and give variable turn effort, though that will be repeatable and regular.

Power steering would be minimal at speed, but could be the issue, but if it's fine at parking speed unlikely.

[Lupo675]

I definitely have GTI ball joints fitted, Pete. They had to get genuine VW ones as no where else seemed to do them for the GTI.

I cant say I definitely have GTI lower arms as I didn't fit them myself (garage did the work). I do trust the work they do though. Either way the problem was there before and it's still there now so I would've thought it be worse if they fitted incorrect arms...A quick look on ECP does list the same arms for a 1.4 and GTI though... Hmm.

Yeah I've not noted any rumbling like that or anything.

Cheers sausage, more stuff to mention. I cant think it's something catastrophic as it happened so quickly.
Am tempted to take it to a very good tracking company who did it before but it's more money to spend possibly not fixing the problem as it's been done once.

Pete, I just remembered, I had bilstein top mounts fitted when I had my bilstein shocks fitted so I'd be very surprised if either of them had failed already (only had it fitted a year and a half ago)...Though one of their rear dampers did burst it's seal a few months back that I had to replace.

Cheers again!

Edited July 19, 2015 by Lupo675

[Lupo675]

Well...Went back to the garage that did the control arms/bushes and spoke to them about the problems, they adjusted the toe in by .5 degrees to give it a little more straight line stability.

The tech that took it for a drive with me said he could feel the bump steer a bit but nothing else felt bad. I guess I was used to how the car was feeling before so have noticed the change more.

It still doesn't seem right to me but I'm loathed to throw money at it getting things checked and replaced!

Had a friend drive the car too who knows a little bit about cars should feel, he said he didn't notice anything massively obvious either.

The problems are definitely less than they were, could have been the new front tyres wearing in along with the bushes (letting them settle if that's a thing?).

Few more people to talk to but I may well end up just accepting that this is how it feels now...

Cheers!

[Skezza]

I meant to say this the other day, just to be sure. Did you check both your front tyres were good? I once had a very slightly warped tyre and spent ages trying to diagnose it, checking track rod ends and pretty much all the bushes down there. I had a vibration all the way through from 0-90mph although it softened as I got faster and I had a slight veer in the direction of the warped tyre. I'd as good as given up finding it when someone I know suggested it could be a warped tyre. Low and behond, the belt of my left nearside tyre had crushed (apparently this can happen when going over a pot hole, or even when simply going up a curb) causing a slight bulge to one side. This was so hard to notice because although the wear was slightly excessive on the bulge, it was the inside tread of the tyre so you wouldn't have noticed it by feel alone and it was hard to spot.

I can't really say this is any use at all, but I would go ahead and check this. You can easily diagnose it using your spare tyre.

[Lupo675]

Open to all suggestions man, will check this out. I would've thought it unlikely as I had new front tyres fitted along with the bushes/control arms but I guess it's possible!

Pretty sure I don't have a spare tyre mind, not sure GTI's come with one? :S

Still got to speak to some handling guys...Will keep this updated as to if (or not) I find the problem!

[Silver!]

Swap front to rear.

If you lived nearby I could lend you a set of wheels and tyres to test it on.

[Skezza]

Open to all suggestions man, will check this out. I would've thought it unlikely as I had new front tyres fitted along with the bushes/control arms but I guess it's possible!

Pretty sure I don't have a spare tyre mind, not sure GTI's come with one? :S

Still got to speak to some handling guys...Will keep this updated as to if (or not) I find the problem!

If you've had new tyres lately then it's pretty unlikely.

[Silver!]

GTIs don't come with a spare, however mine has a spare and another full set and spare.

One on eBay for £49 at the moment. Shiut state and needs a refurb, but still.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VW-Lupo-GTI-15-Single-Alloy-Wheel-4x100-Stud-ET43-6-5J-6E0-601-025-A-reff-EB-77/331204358681?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131017132637%26meid%3D71eda030a2124c2199212228460a6d9f%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D141702748156

[Skezza]

GTIs don't come with a spare, however mine has a spare and another full set and spare.

One on eBay for £49 at the moment. Shiut state and needs a refurb, but still.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VW-Lupo-GTI-15-Single-Alloy-Wheel-4x100-Stud-ET43-6-5J-6E0-601-025-A-reff-EB-77/331204358681?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131017132637%26meid%3D71eda030a2124c2199212228460a6d9f%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D141702748156

I would love to refurbish that. Over priced in that condition though.

[Silver!]

I have a brand new, never seen a tyre, still in the original box Bathurst. Paid £50 as a second chance on eBay.

Result.

[mickster]

I have a brand new, never seen a tyre, still in the original box Bathurst. Paid £50 as a second chance on eBay.

Result.

how long ago did you get that? Jealous!

[Silver!]

About 2 years. there were a few bidders above me, but none paid or answered the seller.

I also have a brand new rear section exhaust I got for £50 delivered. Hanging on my dining foo wall as a piece of art.

[malte]

Interesting topic, I'm experiencing similar issues with my gti. But i don't know if it's really something wrong or if this is the way a lupo drives.

My lupo is very sensitive to tracks in the road (tram lining?) and it has some torque steer, which i find weird with 150nm on tap.

The car recently had kw v1's fitted and alignment done, it's not slammed.

Also recently replaced both front wheel bearings, so i had a good chance to inspect everything up front.

It just passed annual inspection.

What i suspect is either that i run wheels with slightly different ET (37 vs. 40-something on bathurst), or my powerflex bushings in the control arms.

The bushings looked kind of worn when i did the bearing job(bushing are maybe 3000miles old).

Edited July 24, 2015 by malte

[Vwlup0]

I've had this exact problem, I replaced my coilovers, bottom suspension arms, drop links, ball joints and top mounts and ended up with 10 degrees of positive toe over the front end and half a degree of positive camber both sides, plus I'd maxed the track rods out in the ends.. I managed to toe it back out at work but couldn't adjust the camber. It turns out I'd been supplied standard ball joints; so I fished my old worn ball joints out and refitted with new boots and grease as a tempory measure, and I managed to pull the toe to the correct setting and sort my camber to run negative. The normal ball joints compared to the gti ball joints is quite easy to see, the overall size is completely different.

It then drove spot on, like it did before!

Edited July 24, 2015 by Vwlup0

[malte]

Update.

I gathered my tools and went out to take a look a my car, i found something scary:

The Powerflex bushing has broken, really great after 2-3000miles.

I tried to convince it with my jacklift, and it actually jumped in to place:

But after a quick spin around the street is was back to previous state.

Guess i will be opening my wallet again.

Regardning balljoints: Mine are gti ones and toe was no problem when aligning.

Edited July 24, 2015 by malte

[Skezza]

You're not the first person to have powerflex go on you.