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1.4 16v 75bhp Vs 1.4 16v 100bhp


Dubbprince
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hello all,

I have a slight dilemna! So i'll start by explaining what i have and what my choices are and let you guys offer up advice on the best route:

Cars:

1.) VW Polo mk4- Converted fully to a MK5 1.6 16v GTI spec- engine, looms everything! Engine code: AVY.

2.) Lupo s- currently host to a 1.4 16v AHW engine and box but requires new piston rings.

3.) Spare Engine currently sitting on a stand- 1.6 16v GTI engine- code: ARC.

NOW then...i plan to supercharge the polo and after a great deal of thinking i've come to the decision to rip apart a 100bhp version of the 1.4 16v from a sport lupo or alike and charge that with standard con rods and pistons but everything else fettled.

I know what you lot are probably thinking...why don't you just take the GTI setup out of the polo and dump it into the lupo, well i could do but i only have 1 GTI 5 speed box and the lupo will race through gears with a 1600 engine strapped to it...been there, done that and its not economical and is placing more strain on the engine as it revs too much.

Does anyone with Autodata or similar know what the differences were between the 1.4 16v sport and the 1.4 16v s engines?? besides the throttle body and ecu...can anyone tell me if the head/bottom end is different??

What i'll do you see is take the GTI on the stand and stick that in the lupo IF i know i can convert my 75bhp 16v 1.4 engine to a 100bhp version using spare GTI 1.6 16v parts, like the inlet manifold,exhaust manifold.

Basically i can have two spare engines and be able to either build a stronger engine for the lupo and a quicker one if i mix and match:

1.4 16v 75bhp AFW

1.6 16v 125bhp AVY

Please help...Thanks. Sanj.

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The bottom end parts through the 1.4 16V 75bhp to 100bhp and 1.6 16V are all different. One of the main problems in my eyes with the smaller blocks is that they are aluminium so wear faster than the lupo gti AVY engines.

Your main difference between the 1.4 75 and 100 is: inlet manifold, TB, fuel injectors, map, bottom end, and cams.

Yes you could swap the offending parts from the GTi engine onto the 1.4 engine, but you will be losing horsepower compared to the 1.6 block, and putting more strain on the 75bhp internals - you would not get a stronger and quicker engine unfortunately. Your best bet would be to use the 1.6 as it is, and then work upwards from there.

If you plan on ripping apart a sport engine, you can take the head off that, and whack it on the spare polo GTi block, to lose the VVT and gain a nicer set of cams. With a nice exhaust, induction and remap that should see a nice gain of around the 25bhp mark (flywheel-wise). Obviously you could then charge that and you've got a nicer base to work from...

Edited by veedubdude
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thanks for the reply bud...i would mess with it but i made a decision today that one way or another, i'll just fix the engine that is in the lupo with a new set of big end shells, head gasket kit and of course piston rings...

But in the long run it will be host to a 1.6 16v gti engine.

As for the polo, the hunt will be on for a sport engine to supercharge because of its stronger conrods and pistons compared to the GTI bottom end which would require going down the forged route.

For now i think this is the most wisest decision because of what you say- the lupo AFW lump is useless as a base and can't be made quicker.

Anyone tried fitting a GTI inlet/TB to one?? I have one laying about and i could try it but dont know how it might react.

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You'll find you cant get big end shells for the 1.4 16V, as when you unbolt the crank pedestals the whole block twists apparently! You can renew the piston rings though.

There was a guy from jabba on here awhile ago that fitted the lupo gti inlet, TB, and fuel rail. With a b/box, induction and remap he was getting just on 100bhp. Not bad!

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You'll find you cant get big end shells for the 1.4 16V, as when you unbolt the crank pedestals the whole block twists apparently! You can renew the piston rings though.

There was a guy from jabba on here awhile ago that fitted the lupo gti inlet, TB, and fuel rail. With a b/box, induction and remap he was getting just on 100bhp. Not bad!

i meant the conrod bearings sorry lol...i always get the two mixed up. they're about £4 each from vw...

I'd give it a go at bolting on the GTI parts but the remap would be costly...and for that kinda money i'd just drop the GTI lump in which is the plan in the long run. I'm just awaiting a full gti loom from a mate and i have a spare gti ecu,keys,clocks,immobilisor etc...so it can be dropped in without much hassle...i just hope the box can take it. :D

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lol...i can get you a set of clocks out of two cars.

one is in ireland, if you contact stephen on clubpolo. He is breaking a gti there, good lad...i've bought a fair bit off him. He wants £50 for a set with 44-47k on them. The other is another mate of mine down south in lindfield, he'll probably want atleast £60-80 for his as he's a vw techy and knows the cost new...those have less than 50k too.

As for ECU...lol...found a whole set with transponder box,coil reader,key with chip...£50 DELIVERED. bargain of the century!! :D That was a while back now and i use that as a spare set in case i get in a position like i'm in now where i have two cars...

I also have 2 GTI engines, one will end up in the lupo the other is already rebuilt and in my polo...but will go to my best mate and i'll take his GTI engine in PX to do the same again.

GTI boxes are the hard things to get hold of at a cheap price, my last one set me back £180 but had been rebuilt and covered less than 500miles...but had no paperwork, i'm glad its fine though :)

If your after something, let me know and i'll keep an eye out bud. B)

I'm hoping to get the head off the lupo today and start taking the pistons out....lets hope this cures the high emissions! :angry:

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seeing your thread a couple times really makes me want to get the sport head to lose VVT and do what your did...then slap a charger on it.

I mean, your running standard GTI pistons and rods right and are getting 170bhp, 150 at the wheels.

If you can do it, can't see why i cant get 170 with just low boost lol. ahh i wish it was simple. :(

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i'm not sure how it actually works, i'm guessing its just cam shaft sensors doing it...which could be bypassed i guess.

AndyP where are youuuu...lol...come on EATON runners, tell me what can i do to build an engine with standard rods and pistons.

My mate at mercedes reckons a sport engine with overbored pistons at £113+vat each...still cheaper than forged and increases CC.

BUT then theres this whole thing about the rods being weaker in a GTI<<is this proven???

All i want to do now is get more than 125bhp...i want a charger and i want reliability ( i want to take care of the engine, not kill it) so it that means low boost...then so be it, i'm gagging to get this done this year. B)

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Yes the VVT is normally disused after they've been remapped from what Ive read on here.

Im starting to think go the charger route instead of turbo now, all with the standard pistons though. I dont want to meddle with the mani and exhaust because it sounds so nice!!!

Liking the look of your polo in the avatar dubprince, I used to have a valver awhile ago...

P1040439.jpg

Just dropped and wide wheels! :)

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most of you lupo guys probably dont recognise me as i tend to stick to one forum lol...but heres my car:

276495604.jpg

278708250.jpg

315962560.jpg

315962557.jpg

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More on: www.picturetrail.com/dubbprince

Specs are:

1.6 16v with BMC, 4-2-1+decat and cat back ss system with hidden tailpipe.

twin pacet fans,

VR6 Radiator,

seam welded subframe,wishbones and mounting points,

FK highsport coilovers,

B&M quick shift,

relocated engine bay brake lines,

goodridge hoses all round,

G60 front brakes,

GTI disc conversion with black diamond brakes all round (inc. predator pads),

GTI dash conversion,

recaro speed replica seats,

3 point harnesses,

front and rear strut brace,

show cage,

relocated knight odyssey drycell battery,

flared arches all round,

smoothed all over...

8.5" WRD mesh rear wheels ET23

8" WRD front wheels ET23

Toyo proxis T 1s's.

For 2009- new boot lid, front end respray, new FASTER engine (he hopes), wider wheels, respray headlight air intake- yes! one off custom made headlamp air intake!

list goes on...sorry this should be in members rides...

Edited by Dubbprince
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right now though...its running on a set of BMW banded steels- 9" on rear and 8" on front ET27. Winter look i guess.

I also now have a lupo which you'll see kinda follows the same black theme this car does and is my runaround when i get it sorted.

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i'm not sure how it actually works, i'm guessing its just cam shaft sensors doing it...which could be bypassed i guess.

AndyP where are youuuu...lol...come on EATON runners, tell me what can i do to build an engine with standard rods and pistons.

My mate at mercedes reckons a sport engine with overbored pistons at £113+vat each...still cheaper than forged and increases CC.

BUT then theres this whole thing about the rods being weaker in a GTI<<is this proven???

All i want to do now is get more than 125bhp...i want a charger and i want reliability ( i want to take care of the engine, not kill it) so it that means low boost...then so be it, i'm gagging to get this done this year. B)

Andy didnt do his conversion, so i dont think he woudl ahve mucht o say, you need to speak to AW track sport.

No gti conrod has ever been proven to brake under loading. Its not someting that you would want to find out tbh, as it will 100% ruin the whole engine when it lets go!

Everyone i have spoken to has said the rods arent designed for froced induction. Inc andy at storm who did both dubjimbobs and paulbins conversions (who advised against using them from the start) - i know there sport engines, but practically the same.

And seing the difference with my rods when they came back from carrillio i can see where the professionals think they are weak. (mine were designed for forced induction to my specs btw)

Sadly theres only one way to find out. im sure you will be fine unless you plan to push way over 200bhp. Id reccomend getting total seal rings for the gti pistons as the oem rings are very brittle. Ive PM'd you the part numbers.

John

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John,

thanks for that info...i've pmed the lad selling the sport engine in the hope he'll sell to me but doesn't seem likely right now, so the hunt carries on.

I've decided to use oversize pistons in the 1.4 with the total seal rings and everything else will be standard apart from comp gasket, gti inlet/tb and exhaust system which i'll be using my current system.

Andy pm'ed me a couple days ago and said that AWT rebuilt his engine with standard internals and its just using a compression gasket, so i'll call them to confirm and if they say its good for 170-180bhp then i'll be using my spare gti engine as i'm anxious to get this done...

My understanding is that as long as the compression is right then the only problem i might have is possibly melting a piston from excessive heat from increased combustion.

With the amount of things i want to do to the polo this year, forged internals are just a no no for me. I know people that would help get a 20vt in and running oem management for that price and the fact i don't want more than 180bhp and the car isn't going to be used as much now that i have the lupo makes sense not to spend that much. Maybe 2010...

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After inspecting the internals of a 1.4 16v...i have come to the conclusion that the rods are the only thing majorly different- they have a slightly longer throw on the 1.4 and the rod bolts are of course ever so slightly thicker.

The GTI piston has bigger cut outs for the larger exhaust valves and the rod is slightly more chunkier...The other difference is that the gti rods have been heated and cracked whereas the 1.4 rods have been made seperate (i.e. bottom and rest of the rod)

The bottom end on the 1.4 lacks the jets that fire oil up the cylinders...both pistons are the same diameter.

Based on this, i will be charging the 1.6 16v now...using standard internals for the time being. :)

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Good choice, Im glad someone else looked at the two sets of pistons and rods and came to the same conclusion as me! All I keep hearing is 'but Ive been told that the 1.4 16V internals are stronger...' These pics clearly show the beefier rod on the 1.6. The question being, if the 1.4 rods will take 180bhp with forced induction (as has been proved already) what will the GTi rods take... ;)

Im guessing you are going to swap out the rod big end bolts for a set of ARP's, and if so you need a set for a Ford CVH engine. :)

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bingo! lol...yep...thanks for the info, i'll get myself some of those ARP bolts and also the headbolts...should start rebuilding this slowly over the coming months.

I just want to create some clean work space in my garage first.

The head will be gas flowed and larger inlet valves added- Can John confirm what the cost per valve/valve spring was?

Then it all goes back together...

Not gonna lighten the flywheel or crank...it'll be too unpredicatble. :)

The money saved will go on standalone IF emerald really can run the engine with a fly by wire throttle.

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I think i paid about £16 per valve, plus rework costs, this was through a friend so i guess that was trade costs. You can ahceive alot from reworking the original valves too, apparently the head is very restrictive there.

The valves themselves werent much bigger, but there a different type, i cant remember the name of them. Something about groves?? single groove as opposed to tripple groove?? The valves wont last as long because there not meant to rotate. But offer much better seating at higher compression values.

TBH it wasnt something i researched in to very much, i left that bit to the professionals! As im no way near a professional.....

Also, ive just noticed from the pics... The 1.4 engine has crank guided rods, the 1.6 is a piston guided engine ;) , It wouldnt have worked anyway. You can see that from the 2nd pic, theres about a 150thou gap inbetween the piston pin bosses and the rod on the 1.4. And on the 1.6 engine there is next to **** all.

John

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I think i paid about £16 per valve, plus rework costs, this was through a friend so i guess that was trade costs. You can ahceive alot from reworking the original valves too, apparently the head is very restrictive there.

The valves themselves werent much bigger, but there a different type, i cant remember the name of them. Something about groves?? single groove as opposed to tripple groove?? The valves wont last as long because there not meant to rotate. But offer much better seating at higher compression values.

TBH it wasnt something i researched in to very much, i left that bit to the professionals! As im no way near a professional.....

Also, ive just noticed from the pics... The 1.4 engine has crank guided rods, the 1.6 is a piston guided engine ;) , It wouldnt have worked anyway. You can see that from the 2nd pic, theres about a 150thou gap inbetween the piston pin bosses and the rod on the 1.4. And on the 1.6 engine there is next to **** all.

John

John,

i'm a little confused...maybe i'm just being stupid but when you say it wouldnt have worked, do you mean a 1.4 being charged due to the fact that it is rod guided and the pin gap doesn't help?

Also, i've had a quote of £40 per valve so yours is more than half the price! can you drop me a pm with details on where you got them, or did you get your mate who did the head to get them?

Thanks...

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I thought you were going to use a 1.6 bottom end and 1.4 internals originally? or vise versa?? or was a barking up the wrong tree completely?

You coudlnt interchange the two because you would end up with the gap at both ends, or no gap at all. unless the 1.4 rods are wider at the bottom end.... i may be completly wrong here, i dont have the two infront of me to see the differences.

The gap is there to allow the con rod to come up central on both upstroke and down stroke. "most" cars have this gap on the piston pin so you dont remove material from the con rod thrust faces. The 1.6 is the opposite, and its just one of those strange engines i guess!

Have you got a 1.4 and 1.6 crank with you? measure the con rod journals and see if there the same width, and measure the crank end width of the con rods (thrust face to thrust face) im just interested to see if the gti rods are thinner than the sports, or if the crank journal is wider.

The guy who did my head is a friend of my old mans, i left him to it as i was out of my depth on that one. I can see what he did if you like, and see if i can find any info on it. But it may take a while to get hold of him, my head did take just over 3 months you see.... hes not the fastest person in the world.

John

Edited by CasperGTI
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I'll be sticking with using the GTI full engine, not gonna bother swapping parts back and fourth.

I no longer have the engine to look at further, wish i had taken more pics...but they werent too different from each other to be honest, just a few minor things like the above and no jets in the cylinders for the oil.

John, if you can find or be able to get the source for the valves...i can do the rest bud...thanks. Sanj.

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