Lupo GTI Eaton M45 "Cold Side" setup

[amarce]

Hi all,

One year ago, I was posting here (i'm from club lupo Spain) regarding an eaton M45 installation with standard Radiator, standard A/C pipes and standard ECU. Well, it's almost finished, i need some parts (self blocking rings and so) but, here you can see the setup:

And the pulley and belt:

I am posting it because i think that this is a cheaper way to install an eaton into our loops, and it's coldside, no hot from the exhaust is coming in

I would like to know your impressions!!

Thanks!!

Edited January 26, 2009 by amarce

[LuPo SpOrTX]

The belt driving the supercharger looks err long! Looks cool though dude, best of luck finishing the build!

[andyp]

Does it actually run then?

[robgti]

im thinking it wont last very long

[CasperGTI]

My impressions, Its only cheaper because youve left out vital components and put safety at an all time low.

Thats a 4 rib belt on a 6 rib pulley, thats really silly..

That belt is way too long between pulleys, you will never get the tension needed, and it will just slip.

I see you have no intercooler, that air is going to be very hot going in to your engine i assure you, so its not really "Cold Side" at all.

Above 4psi boost and the std ecu will put the car in to limp mode.

From the look of your belt routing i swear its going to spin the charger the wrong direction??

No decompression plate?? your engine will go big bang when you rev it, pinking and predetionation arent even half of whats going to happen to that poor engine!

And what is that diverter valve all about? your boost releif pipe is no way big enough do remove the boost when you close the throttle. remember its not like a turbo that spools down when you take your foot off the throttle... Thats just gonna build up back pressure on the charger, and knacker the charger, the the throttle body, then the engine.

Your brake resoroir is below the height of the master cylinder too.... thats dangerous! your relying on suction from the piston to keep your master cylinder full of fluid.

To reduce the heat form the exhaust you wrap the exhaust and then put an exhaust sheild in between them, sorted.

Kudos for trying it a different way.... but i think ill keep to my way

John

Edited January 26, 2009 by CasperGTI

[bobbo]

My impressions, Its only cheaper because youve left out vital components and put safety at an all time low.

Thats a 4 rib belt on a 6 rib pulley, thats really silly..

That belt is way too long between pulleys, you will never get the tension needed, and it will just slip.

I see you have no intercooler, that air is going to be very hot going in to your engine i assure you, so its not really "Cold Side" at all.

Above 4psi boost and the std ecu will put the car in to limp mode.

From the look of your belt routing i swear its going to spin the charger the wrong direction??

No decompression plate?? your engine will go big bang when you rev it, pinking and predetionation arent even half of whats going to happen to that poor engine!

And what is that diverter valve all about? your boost releif pipe is no way big enough do remove the boost when you close the throttle. remember its not like a turbo that spools down when you take your foot off the throttle... Thats just gonna build up back pressure on the charger, and knacker the charger, the the throttle body, then the engine.

Your brake resoroir is below the height of the master cylinder too.... thats dangerous! your relying on suction from the piston to keep your master cylinder full of fluid.

To reduce the heat form the exhaust you wrap the exhaust and then put an exhaust sheild in between them, sorted.

Kudos for trying it a different way.... but i think ill keep to my way

John

Wow! and i bet thats only a small percentage of what needs considering when supercharging!

[LiamD]

Can't really add to what John put, but that belt looks far too skinny, the one my G40 looks twice as wide. Plus, a V-Belt with that little tension.. it will probably just slip all the time!

[treblet]

One word comes to mind... "Hoopty"

[JamesU]

One word comes to mind... "Hoopty"

Hahahahahahahaha!

[amarce]

My impressions, Its only cheaper because youve left out vital components and put safety at an all time low.

Thats a 4 rib belt on a 6 rib pulley, thats really silly..

That belt is way too long between pulleys, you will never get the tension needed, and it will just slip.

I see you have no intercooler, that air is going to be very hot going in to your engine i assure you, so its not really "Cold Side" at all.

Above 4psi boost and the std ecu will put the car in to limp mode.

From the look of your belt routing i swear its going to spin the charger the wrong direction??

No decompression plate?? your engine will go big bang when you rev it, pinking and predetionation arent even half of whats going to happen to that poor engine!

And what is that diverter valve all about? your boost releif pipe is no way big enough do remove the boost when you close the throttle. remember its not like a turbo that spools down when you take your foot off the throttle... Thats just gonna build up back pressure on the charger, and knacker the charger, the the throttle body, then the engine.

Your brake resoroir is below the height of the master cylinder too.... thats dangerous! your relying on suction from the piston to keep your master cylinder full of fluid.

To reduce the heat form the exhaust you wrap the exhaust and then put an exhaust sheild in between them, sorted.

Kudos for trying it a different way.... but i think ill keep to my way

John

Hi,

First of all, I said that is cheaper, not better obviously, if I had a big pocket, ther would be forged internals, the crankshaft from a 1.4 16v to get the CR down, forged valvles and so, but this is a cheaper project to see what can be acomplished with low bucks. The problems will be solved as they where coming.

The belt was a problem that we thought also, but the newer pulley for the alternator was 4 rib because a 6 rib one was too close from the chasis.

Regarding the long of the belt, there will be no problem, the only problem are the ribs, not the long because you allways can get harder springs to get the tension, or put more pulleys to get more power from it. We have done a little tryout and it goes perfectly without slip at all, but let's see when it will be all finished.

The "coldisde" setup, this is how is named an intercooler that goes onto the intake manifold and not the exhaust one, is just nomenclature. The intercooler will come in the Stage II, when i am sure that all is working as expected, but remember that every ºC or ºF that you freeze, is only 1ºC or 1ºF the engine cooler, is not exponential.... with an intercooler you can get rid of 20 to 40º only (with a air/water maybe you can get 80º off)... i think that only changing the intercooler to the intake side, could be the same effect than having an intercooler onto the exhaust side, because the shield won't take the 600ºC from the exhaust off. We should try it to see what happens at last.

The limp mode, has been "hacked" with a custom made "missing link", this will be no prob at all.

The charger is taking and blowing the air as all is connected, we have tried it and goes this way, we thought that it will be running "inverse" (wich has no problems at all, only the pipes should be connected at inverse) but it runs as it should.

We have talked to Mike at ferriday and when all will be ok (by the moment, it will not be blowing more than 2 o 4 PSI for safety reasons) we will get a decompression plate to get 8:1 CR.

The BOV is connected using a pipe that we got over there, we will take another one if it's needed (you can know if you need another one because when you go one gear down it speeds up )

The brake reservoir is another thing this is due to really, really wearing down the braking pads, the new pads are being shipped

I'll upload a video when it will be spinning

Thanks for your comments, allways is good to know what could be bad with a setup

Edited January 27, 2009 by amarce

[andyp]

fairplay for doing it that way mate, ive never seen a setup like that before but you dont want to break the charger or even worse your engine.. the car can be run on standard internals as mine is..

[amarce]

fairplay for doing it that way mate, ive never seen a setup like that before but you dont want to break the charger or even worse your engine.. the car can be run on standard internals as mine is..

Hi Andy,

I'm trying not to break anything I've read a lot of articles regarding that a charger can be run at inverse with no problems, but by the moment it runs as expected

Have you installed a decompression plate?

Thanks!!

[CasperGTI]

Hi,

First of all, I said that is cheaper, not better obviously, if I had a big pocket, ther would be forged internals, the crankshaft from a 1.4 16v to get the CR down, forged valvles and so, but this is a cheaper project to see what can be acomplished with low bucks. The problems will be solved as they where coming.

The belt was a problem that we thought also, but the newer pulley for the alternator was 4 rib because a 6 rib one was too close from the chasis.

Regarding the long of the belt, there will be no problem, the only problem are the ribs, not the long because you allways can get harder springs to get the tension, or put more pulleys to get more power from it. We have done a little tryout and it goes perfectly without slip at all, but let's see when it will be all finished.

The "coldisde" setup, this is how is named an intercooler that goes onto the intake manifold and not the exhaust one, is just nomenclature. The intercooler will come in the Stage II, when i am sure that all is working as expected, but remember that every ºC or ºF that you freeze, is only 1ºC or 1ºF the engine cooler, is not exponential.... with an intercooler you can get rid of 20 to 40º only (with a air/water maybe you can get 80º off)... i think that only changing the intercooler to the intake side, could be the same effect than having an intercooler onto the exhaust side, because the shield won't take the 600ºC from the exhaust off. We should try it to see what happens at last.

The limp mode, has been "hacked" with a custom made "missing link", this will be no prob at all.

The charger is taking and blowing the air as all is connected, we have tried it and goes this way, we thought that it will be running "inverse" (wich has no problems at all, only the pipes should be connected at inverse) but it runs as it should.

We have talked to Mike at ferriday and when all will be ok (by the moment, it will not be blowing more than 2 o 4 PSI for safety reasons) we will get a decompression plate to get 8:1 CR.

The BOV is connected using a pipe that we got over there, we will take another one if it's needed (you can know if you need another one because when you go one gear down it speeds up )

The brake reservoir is another thing this is due to really, really wearing down the braking pads, the new pads are being shipped

I'll upload a video when it will be spinning

Thanks for your comments, allways is good to know what could be bad with a setup

I dont understand what you mean about this intercooler thing? you do know when you compress air it gets hot? air leaving that charger can be anything up to 70 degrees C, but that is with 10+psi of boost, i suppose your 2-4 psi wont be as hot.

A supercharger does not use exhaust gasses.... Its a cold stream compressor, installed only to the inlet side of the engine only.

We put our superchargers down the front of the car with a new radiator beacue the belt routing is easier and it looks better imo.

I think your find at higher rpm and when you require a bit more torque, that belt will slip. Somethniog you obviously havent tried yet i know.

Ive just thought, yours is a left hooker, your resoroir would be down that low anyhow.

I will like to see this runnin, but surely for the power from 4psi of boost... it would have been cheaper to get a good exhaust, air filter, cams and a remap.

Andy and myself are both running decompression plates. Mine is 3mm and takes the CR to 8.2:1

John

[amarce]

I dont understand what you mean about this intercooler thing? you do know when you compress air it gets hot? air leaving that charger can be anything up to 70 degrees C, but that is with 10+psi of boost, i suppose your 2-4 psi wont be as hot.

A supercharger does not use exhaust gasses.... Its a cold stream compressor, installed only to the inlet side of the engine only.

We put our superchargers down the front of the car with a new radiator beacue the belt routing is easier and it looks better imo.

I think your find at higher rpm and when you require a bit more torque, that belt will slip. Somethniog you obviously havent tried yet i know.

Ive just thought, yours is a left hooker, your resoroir would be down that low anyhow.

I will like to see this runnin, but surely for the power from 4psi of boost... it would have been cheaper to get a good exhaust, air filter, cams and a remap.

Andy and myself are both running decompression plates. Mine is 3mm and takes the CR to 8.2:1

John

Hi,

I know how a charger works, I've installed it myself

I mean that if the air is leaving @ 70ºC, you should add another 100º coming from the exhaust that are not shielded 100% this is a total of 170ºC (Aprox.) the intercooler reduces the heat about 20 - 40º, this makes a total of 130ºC; but if you mount it on the top of the intake, the air leaves @ 70ºC, and you should add another 40 - 50º from the intake manifold, this makes a total of 130ºC, this could be aprox. the same.

I droped mine in the back because it was easier for me to use all the standard parts of the car and the belt routing was no problem, because it has been done by industrial engineers who are engineering machines that are using really large belts (7 - 10 M) aproximately and huge power for them (100 HP), they said that it could be a bit weak with 4 rib, but all the another pulleys had 6 rib to do the exchange if it doesn't work (We should make the alternator pulley again, because that only has 4 rib, not 6).

The 4 psi are by the moment, when i get the decompression plate, i hope it will go to 0.5 - 0.7 BAR (No more than that due to the std internals).

[DUB JIMBOB]

I also think your belt is far to long, if you had a pulley/tensioner in the middle then can't see why it would'nt work.

The belt is going to slip mega when you up your psi.

Im running standard internals with a 2mm decomp plate running 0.9 psi, your internals will hold up, not sure your engine is going to like all that hot air, something will probs go wrong in a big way m8. If the air did'

Edited January 27, 2009 by DUB JIMBOB

[CasperGTI]

I understand what you mean now. Sadly i dont agree, If the air is 130 degrees before it enters the engine, you will have evaporated most of the fuel before you even reach the combustion chamber.

If you graphite exhaust wrap the manifold. And then put a metal heat guard in between the two, you will get next to none heat soak from the manifold. in the region of 75% or more less.

I can understand why youve done it, it must have been fairly cheap to do... But how long it lasts is another thing surely?

How are you going to put an intercooler in for stage 2?

Have a look at my build at the top of the readers ride section, its probably the best way to show you how most of the people have done it over here.

Its going to be interesting to see how this comes along.

John

[JimBowen]

My impressions, Its only cheaper because youve left out vital components and put safety at an all time low.

Thats a 4 rib belt on a 6 rib pulley, thats really silly..

That belt is way too long between pulleys, you will never get the tension needed, and it will just slip.

I see you have no intercooler, that air is going to be very hot going in to your engine i assure you, so its not really "Cold Side" at all.

Above 4psi boost and the std ecu will put the car in to limp mode.

From the look of your belt routing i swear its going to spin the charger the wrong direction??

No decompression plate?? your engine will go big bang when you rev it, pinking and predetionation arent even half of whats going to happen to that poor engine!

And what is that diverter valve all about? your boost releif pipe is no way big enough do remove the boost when you close the throttle. remember its not like a turbo that spools down when you take your foot off the throttle... Thats just gonna build up back pressure on the charger, and knacker the charger, the the throttle body, then the engine.

Your brake resoroir is below the height of the master cylinder too.... thats dangerous! your relying on suction from the piston to keep your master cylinder full of fluid.

To reduce the heat form the exhaust you wrap the exhaust and then put an exhaust sheild in between them, sorted.

Kudos for trying it a different way.... but i think ill keep to my way

John

I'm not even going to pretend to know what half of that means ..but from pictures alone. My money is on John

[veedubdude]

Again, I'm with John on this one 100%.

Hell, the Vortech superchargers on the 3.2 blocks use a belt half of that size in length and almost 50% wider with teeth, and they have massive slippage problems unless the tension is perfect. Yes, you could get it work with extra pulleys to increase tension around each end, but there are so many other factors that have been mentioned above, so I wont mention them again!

Top marks for trying something different, as I myself have been looking at a similar location for the charger; but not using the belt configuration that you have.

I do think you will get it running on the standard ECU though, its just whether the engine will take the strain. Id be interested in some RR print-outs when its mapped to show how the standard ECU runs with the MAP sensor inhibited.

[amarce]

Again, I'm with John on this one 100%.

Hell, the Vortech superchargers on the 3.2 blocks use a belt half of that size in length and almost 50% wider with teeth, and they have massive slippage problems unless the tension is perfect. Yes, you could get it work with extra pulleys to increase tension around each end, but there are so many other factors that have been mentioned above, so I wont mention them again!

Top marks for trying something different, as I myself have been looking at a similar location for the charger; but not using the belt configuration that you have.

I do think you will get it running on the standard ECU though, its just whether the engine will take the strain. Id be interested in some RR print-outs when its mapped to show how the standard ECU runs with the MAP sensor inhibited.

I'll take it to a dyno when it will be running, but think that when you are at WOT (open loop) the MAP sensor does nothing, because is atmosferic pressure and there is nothing to be calculated. You can push your pedal all way in from 1000RPM and it will run perfect, the MAP sensor is doing nothing because is WOT, it should work for sure

The intercooler will be a barrel one (http://www.pwr-performance.com/intercooler.htm) fitted where is the air filter actually.

[karl]

There is no point in putting the cooler before the charger as you will NEVER cool the air below ambient .

[amarce]

There is no point in putting the cooler before the charger as you will NEVER cool the air below ambient .

The cooler, obviously, will go behind the charger and the manifold, not connected to the filter The pipes will be rerouted to fit

[karl]

The intercooler will be a barrel one (http://www.pwr-performance.com/intercooler.htm) fitted where is the air filter actually.

Sorry about that the way it read made me think otherwise .

[amarce]

The intercooler will be a barrel one (http://www.pwr-performance.com/intercooler.htm) fitted where is the air filter actually.

Sorry about that the way it read made me think otherwise .

Hahaha, no problem m8

[veedubdude]

The MAP sensor is always calculating, it doesn't switch off at WOT. Therefore when boost is introduced the MAP sensor readings will go off the scale and quickly put the standard ECU into limp mode. This has already been proved on a couple of 1.4 / 1.6 turbos in the UK trying to run stock management. Even a project on here had it happening. That is why you need an inhibitor on your MAP sensor.

Stealth racing in Warwickshire (UK) have had this before and sell the appropriate kit so that your stock ECU will run a turbo. Even after speaking to them, they advise against it, as after 10+hours on RR time the system still wasn't 100%.

[amarce]

The MAP sensor is always calculating, it doesn't switch off at WOT. Therefore when boost is introduced the MAP sensor readings will go off the scale and quickly put the standard ECU into limp mode. This has already been proved on a couple of 1.4 / 1.6 turbos in the UK trying to run stock management. Even a project on here had it happening. That is why you need an inhibitor on your MAP sensor.

Stealth racing in Warwickshire (UK) have had this before and sell the appropriate kit so that your stock ECU will run a turbo. Even after speaking to them, they advise against it, as after 10+hours on RR time the system still wasn't 100%.

Hi,

I've made a "missing link" is only a check valve that protects the map from boost. When you are at WOT, the MAP sensor reads atmosferic pressure so it uses the O2 sensors to calculate how is all going because your MAP sensor can't do anything else since the top of the reading is reached. I had the check valve installed and fine tuned it without the charger installed and for now is running like stock

I've also installed an RRFPR and a Wideband O2 gauge and try to tune the engine at dyno and see if I can get a consistent AFR.