Rear Speakers

[EmilyKiouki]

I bought me a Lupo at the weekend, I have already put in a new head unit in (4 channel output) and now I really want/need rear speakers. I am dead against putting anything into the parcel shelf, and have no interest in setups using subs and amps (especially given that my taste in music :oops: )

Anybody got any ideas ?

[Tigz™]

How about a small box in the boot (the size of a shoe box) with two 4" focal subs?

These fill just fill in the gaps left by the componants, without being overly boomy.

Rear speakers dont work in a small car.

They drag the sound stage behind you, if your comps are amp'd and set up right, then your passengers wont have any problems hearing them.

[EmilyKiouki]

Thanks for the reply, but I really do not want to be putting anything in the boot (reasons related to things I carry for work)

[Tigz™]

Ok well how about a box under each drivers seat?

4" sub in each box?

[EmilyKiouki]

My Norah Jones album just doesn't justify a sub, all I want is a solution on how to fit a pair of two way speakers in the rear side cards

[Tigz™]

Well the holes in the side panels are already there, so if you buy some speaker ings from VW, or make up some MDF rings (alot better for mounting speakers) then you can fit the speakers behing the door cards.

You'll struggle to find used cards with grills in, If you can get me 2x red rear cards I'll swap my GTi ones with ya, so you have the grills?

Another option, would be to modify the ones you have, by removeing the inner card, replaceing it with a taught canvess, this wouldnt be very strong though.

[dj_slipp]

Save the "hasselhoff" messing about in the back and just fit some decent components up front. At the end of the day you sit in the front not the back. And if you do go in the back the only sound will be the music of love (or a few groans)!! Phil

[tdwindustries]

hey tigz how much you reckon two 4" subs under the seats will cost?

[Tigz™]

I can get them for £120 each for the good focals (the cheep ones are ***** in comparesson) maybee a little cheeper if anyone else wants 2?

Maybee £100 each.

Then you'll need a 2ohm stable amp as they are 5ohm speakers (2x5ohm coils=2ohm) they need around 400wrms but Source recomends 600wrms.

A used directed 600 will cost you around £200 but I have seen them as low as £180.

Each speaker needs a 0.4 to 0.6cuft box.

[tdwindustries]

hmmm

trouble is that would eat into the coilover fund...

sorry about indiscators btw - what did you do in the end?

[DanGTI]

dont the gti rear cards have room for speakers? surely she could get some in there......

soundstage? in a lupo??? its just a car not a recording studio so the sound will never be perfect anyway - from what i can make out all she wants is to play her cd's not stress about resonance, reverb and the kind of acoustic quality you would look for in a home set up......just to play some tunes

[Lenni_Lupo™]

God! why is it people think that just because most cars have rear speaker, and most cars stick a set of 6x9s on the cardboard parcel shelf, flapping about that it will make a system sound better?

It isnt possable to fit 4 sets of speakers, and expect them to sound any better than the standard two mids and two tweets in front of you.

Only low frequency responce is non directional.

Every thing over around 50hz you can tell where it is coming from when you close your eyes.

Ask anyone who has been a passenger in the rear of my car if they have overpowered by the sub, not being able to hear the music up front.

So long as you give you front speakers PLENTY of power, not the 7 or 8wrms a head unit can deliver, but real power, then you will hear them as clear in the rear as you will sitting in the drivers seat.

Dont forget, sound is vibrations in the air.

You will hear is when ever you are sat faceing the music.

The human ear isnt capable of hearing behind us as well.

Tigz

[DanGTI]

some of u fellas seem a bit sensitive about wheather people fit rear speakers.......does it really matter if people want to have some speakers in the back?

Oh, this made me laugh,

"The human ear isnt capable of hearing behind us as well"

...are you kidding me?

ps. dont mean to offend anyone from the anti rear speaker gang - just all seems a bit silly to me.

[Lenni_Lupo™]

Dude. If you are going to question me, about something you have not learnt about, then fair do's, but at least find out if I am right before you accuse me of making a false statement.

The human ear can here from the side, better than straight in front of you. As sound coming towards you is picked up better than sound coming from behind you.

As most people wont be intrested in messing around for weeks on end trying to get the imageing correct, the stock locations are pretty good, as its difficult to get it wrong.

The best sound I ever heard, was from a Saxo, who had is `mid-range` drivers in small boxes under the seat, fireing toward the windscreen so it is reflected to your face.

There is nothing wrong with anyone buying rear speakers if they really want to.

But if it is not going to improve the sound then what is the point in buying them?

She has some great speakers already up front, and if she spent the cash on a more powerful amp instead, it WILL improve the sound, so why not do what is better for your system?

I cant understand why you would do it.

Andi

[DanGTI]

easy mate, no need for the 'how dare you question me' approach!...i 'get' your argument, but a lot of the principles u talk about like perfect imaging and sound stage just dont apply to a car as they would in a home hi fi set up....in a car its always a matter of making do; with less than ideal positioning, terrible 'cabinets' for the speakers and an unstable environment to house the whole system.....

Although I agree that better sound from front speakers will improve the system, rear speakers also will....I know this because Ive tried it, my gf had the standard front speakers & tweeters then added some rears and yes, behold...it does improve the overall sound.

oh also the girl that originally posted said she wasnt interested in subs or amps.

[Tigz™]

She doesnt need subs and amps, but nor does she need rearspeakers to do a job that her front speaker will do.

And why shouldnt a car audio system sound as good as or better than your home system?

I spend more time in my car listening to music, then I do at home.

And getting a great sound from the car auido is much more important than they would be in home auio, as you have a smaller air space to fill.

You have the problem of not having to run speaker free air, so getting the rest of the set up right is very important.

Anyone can take the Max power aproach and fill the car full of speakers, as it will make more noise.

But who wants to listen to noise.

Take a read up on what happens when diffrent size speakers play the same frequencies, the explain why 6x9s in the rear are such a good idea also.

I wasnt saying dont question me.

All I am saying is that it would be curtious to check up on your facts before saying

Oh, this made me laugh,  

"The human ear isnt capable of hearing behind us as well"  

...are you kidding me?  

Now this is something I know about as I have spent hours and hours learning about it.

All I am saying is, if you are going to rubbish somethng I say, at least check to see if it is true before you make the assumtion that I am a cock.

[DanGTI]

sorry mate, but that particular statement is pretty silly....have you actually thought about what u wrote? if u cant see it, try let me explain; my mum has the tv on downstairs and I am upstairs, on the other side of the house, facing the other way and eventhough im facing the other way MY human ear can hear whats behind it quite well....as well as from the speakers in front of me!...... Im not going to argue forever with you about rear speakers but in response to what u said;

theres no reason why you shouldnt spend all the money u want on ur car system - i havent argued this, what i did say is that in a car it just doesnt have the potential to ever sound as good as a home system, because its within a more restricted environment, so there will always be greater compromise.

Also, Im not assuming your a cock I dont even know you....just some of what you said was a bit over the top and some of it was just....umm....wrong.

[Tigz™]

Ok find me the proof that I am wrong.

Theres plenty of it about.

You find me the proof that shows that the human ear can hear sounds behind you as well as it can coming from the front of you.

Im not saying you can not hear behind you. I am saying that for mid and high frequencies sound clearer and louder if coming towards you.

Low bass makes no diffrence where you place it.

Im at work in the morning, so I will find you the proof.

QUOTE(ArosaDan)

what i did say is that in a car it just doesnt have the potential to ever sound as good as a home system

That statement is just ****.

There is no reason why a car audio system cant sound better than a home system.

You have to understand that due to it being a smaller space, it is much easier to get a perfect sound stage.

I will admit its not just a case of installing a couple of amps and 5 drivers, but if you understand what happens to the sound wave inside a car then it can be done.

A car when sealed works as a box in its own right, understanding the frequency of the car is the important bit.

Due to the Lupos size its a perfect car for an SQ base, as the resedent freqencie is so low. (between `52-58hz` according to Blade Ice)

[DanGTI]

your actually changing your argument now.......u started by saying that the human ear CANNOT hear sounds from behind.....as i said, i think thats a bit of a daft thing to say....now your changing it to cannot hear as well - which is plainly obvious.

on the other point your `mis-interpreting` what i wrote - i said a home system will always have the potenial to be better than a car system....which is also obvious for a no. of reasons...for example; cos each driver is contained in specifically designed enclosure; the speakers can be placed in the ideal position (where in a car there are only a certain no. of places you can mount speakers) and because in a home system the enviornment will always be stable and doesnt have engine noise.

Also, I have not disputed that bass frequencies are non directional, I too have read a Bose catalogue!

[Tigz™]

What

I said the human ear isnt capable of hearing music behind you as well.

Check the post again.

[Tigz™]

OK read through this

http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?t=17902

Theres a intresting debate about rear speakers pros and cons.

As I said, I will find proof tommorrow about the ear, but im not looking through medical jurnals this time of night.

May as well get paid for doing that :wink:

[Tigz™]

On the subject of imageing....

Taken from here http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?t=17909

Much in hifi is the product of folk lore. However, within reason, speaker placement is not. That's not too say that speaker placement has to follow rigid rules, it doesn't, quite the opposite. But there must be a reference point, and thus a reason for that reference point.

That reference point is to start with the speakers at a height where the tweeter is at or about ear level. `Toe-in` and rear wall reinforcement are separate considerations, and are relative to different speakers. The reason for ear height placement is due to in part to the initial localisation of sound, and from then, the definition of a stereo signal.

Localisation occurs in the very first instance of a sound, if the sound reaches the right ear first it is to the right, etc. In order to facilitate/maximise the accuracy of this process, initial sonic reflections should be minimised. In practice, therefore, tweeters need to be at or near ear level, and the speaker `toe-in` adjusted so that the initial sonic event is correctly localised. The level/requirement of toe is very much dependant upon the listening room (the likelihood of reflection, etc), and the speakers themselves, (the radiation pattern from a speaker baffle being a factor of the baffle size, the drive unit layout, and the crossover, etc).

Once localisation has taken effect, stereo separation is reliant upon the fact that there is space between the left and right ears, and thus a time delay in sound from the left reaching the right ear, enabling the brain to perceive that the sound is from the left. Room reverberations/reflections then come in to play with regard to spaciousness, soundstaging, and imaging. There is also an incidental benefit of correct localisation in the Haas effect which prioritises the localised incident sound over reflected sound (assuming enough time between the incident and relected sounds, and that the reflections are of low enough order), and reduces the perception of response deviations that may be caused by said reflections.

With respect to tweeter beaming and the resultant sound quality from a tweeter, I agree that the sound is hardly pleasant on it's own. It is, however, critical for initial localisation, and subsequent soundstaging and imaging. Yet, whilst it is true that playing a tweeter alone will result in a poor response, that is irrelevant. The response is from the loudspeaker and it's collection of drive units, which sum to give an overall response, rather than considering the response of an individual drive unit. And this is all the more relevant when crossover types are considered and their consequent effect on phase response and radiation pattern.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, this essentially pertains to domestic audio, and much is unattainable in an `in-car` environment. However, the rules apply equally, it just means that real soundstaging and imaging `in-car` is very difficult.

The most common approach to soundstaging `in-car` is the placement of tweeters at dashboard height. Naturally this brings sound upward from the door/kickwell, but it does not generate a soundstage, and is of little benefit with regard to imaging. Why?. Well, the ear is at it's most sensitive at frequencies at the upper part of the vocal range 1kHz - 3kHz, and tweeters play very little of that range, most being filtered at around 3kHz. Now, at this point many people will say that the output from the tweeter is `ultra-directional`, and yes it is, but that is actually detrimental when the tweeter is disparate from the `mid-bass`. Why?. Because the tweeter has an `ultra-directional` output that the ear localises, and uses as a reference for stereo separation (see above), however, the sensitive vocal frequencies are likely coming from the door or the kickwell. This creates multiple point sources (reflection notwithstanding), and naturally multiple path lengths between each source and the ear, which then create vagaries of phase and time alignment as DaVitch mentioned.

As I said, this is difficult to circumvent `in-car`. One solution is the application of `mid-range` higher in the car, essentially in place of the ubiquitous tweeter. Why?. Well, as mentioned above, the ear is sensitive to vocal frequencies, and their reproduction higher in the car will improve soundstage height and imaging. Bear in mind that treble remains important, and it cannot be forsaken for `mid-range`. But, treble must be coincident with `mid-range` for the effect to work satisfactorily. This can be achieved with coaxial type drive units, or closely placed components (of course, the ease of fitting rather depends on the target vehicle).

Such a system then leaves the `mid-bass`, which is absolutely critical. `Mid-bass` speakers should be used that have maximal reliable low frequency response, so that low bass output is not concentrated at the rear of the car from a subwoofer. Much is stated about the directionality of low bass, or rather the perceived lack of it, and most of it is nonsense. 80Hz is barely acceptable, lower being extremely beneficial.

In many respects the upper end response of the `mid-bass` is determined by the supplied filtering. However, it is better to apply DIY filtering that limits the onset of directionality from the `mid-bass`. The transistion into directionality starts when the diameter of the speaker equals half the wavelength. The transition frequency (as with much filtering) can, and often needs, to be tweaked.

To run such a system successfully it really needs to be `multi-amped` and actively filtered. It is also likely that the `mid-treble` combo will need equalisation, but that depends on their location, and their susceptibility to reflection from glass and other hard surfaces.

At the end of the day it is important to know that an `in-car` system will never stage/image as well as a domestic system. And that includes serious installs featuring path length compensated kick builds and horn loaded mid/tweets. So it is a matter of how far you want/need to go.

A set of tweets on the dash is far easier, and will lift the sound. In the majority of cases such a system can be made to sound acceptable, and that is often all that is required.

[DanGTI]

if u r seriously telling me that u cant hear sounds from behind at the same time as from as in front u must be having a laugh....this is like debating if hunams are capable of watching tv and eating at the same time

[Tigz™]

When did I say that?

I said, and I quote (and check what you quoted me saying on page one) "The human ear isnt capable of hearing behind us as well."

When did I say that you cant hear behind you and in front of you at the same time?

[Tigz™]

Behind us as well = behind us as good if that makes more sense?