Question about my new Clutch (tdi)

[wehey]

Hiya all

I have just fitted a new clutch and 2nd hand gearbox to my tdi.

I have got as far as fitting the hydraulic slave cyclinder and decided to give the clutch peddle a press to see if all is ok.

i can hear the slave cylinder hitting the clutch arm but I just can't tell if the clutch is actually disengaging. The clutch peddle also seems very light.

would I be right in thinking that the clutch, like the brakes wouldn't operate properly without the engine running and being assisted by the master cyclinder?

i do not want to reassemble the rest of the bits if I am going to have to take it all apart again.

is there anyway I could test that it's all working ok?

[Sausage]

Clutch will need bleeding most likely if you've had the slave off at all, there's no servo assistance on the clutch.

Stick it in 1st and lock one hub (if no wheels on it still), jam the pedal down with a bit of wood and then go see if the free hub turns, if so then the clutch is disengaged, let the pedal up then go see if the hub is locked in gear, if so the clutch is engaged. If you havent fitted the drive shafts then do the same with the drive shaft flanges instead.

Friction plate only goes on one way and will have markings to indicate which way round it goes, if you have doubts about it checking that and it still seems funny then it might be that.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Sausage
farted

[carrera-gt]

There is no assistance on the clutch it should work anyway, testing easy enough, as 'sausage' has indicated

[wehey]

Thanks guys

I didn't disconnect the slave, just unbolted it from its housing and pushed to one side.

i tried rotating one of the ds flanges and it rotated freely whether in gear or not. I will do as you suggest and pop one of the ds back in so I can lock one of them off and then will try again

[Sausage]

2 bolts in the flange and a bar between them will lock it against the gearbox or something, no need for the drive shafts. You need to lock one because of the diff.

[wehey]

13 minutes ago, Sausage said:

2 bolts in the flange and a bar between them will lock it against the gearbox or something, no need for the drive shafts. You need to lock one because of the diff.

Thanks mate. I really appreciate the help ?

 

[Sausage]

Sorry lost the plot, if it's just flanges then you can just hold one in one hand and (attempt to) turn the other with the other hand as they are close together LOL

 

Edited May 20, 2016 by Sausage

[wehey]

Ok.... So I have done the tests and the clutch is defo not releasing ?

I checked the clutch cyclinder and I'm pretty sure that's working ok.

so the gearbox is coming off again to see what's up.

i am 99% sure I put the clutch plate in the right way round too.

the gearbox is off a polo (02J EXB) and has the same code as the Arosa box....

Will update when I get further

Edited May 22, 2016 by wehey

[wehey]

UPDATE:

I removed the clutch today and it was definitely installed correctly.

the clutch plate looks the same dimensionally to the old one.

the pressure plate however has a few differences. If you lay them side by side and measure the overall thickness from the spring fingers to the face of the pressure plate it varies by 8mm.

Would this be why it's not releasing??! I don't know what to make of it?

 

[Sausage]

Friction plate has a few differences too. This may not be a problem in itself and may just be different manufacturers doing it slightly differently, but confirm the part numbers and that it is for your engine / gearbox. i'd also slip the friction plate over the input shaft on the gearbox and make sure the splines are correct as a precaution. There should be some marking on the friction plate saying which way faces out

Also check that the clutch release arm and bearing move and behave normally and that the slave cylinder actually connects to the release arm somehow (rod or whatever).

[Sausage]

http://workshop-manuals.com/skoda/fabia-mk1/power_transmission/gearbox_002/clutch_control/repairing_the_clutch/

Spring cage (the sticky outy bit with springs in) towards pressure plate according to that, so double check that it is (was) the right way round.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Sausage

[wehey]

20 minutes ago, Sausage said:

Friction plate has a few differences too. This may not be a problem in itself and may just be different manufacturers doing it slightly differently, but confirm the part numbers and that it is for your engine / gearbox. i'd also slip the friction plate over the input shaft on the gearbox and make sure the splines are correct as a precaution. There should be some marking on the friction plate saying which way faces out

Also check that the clutch release arm and bearing move and behave normally and that the slave cylinder actually connects to the release arm somehow (rod or whatever).

Yep the friction plate ain't exactly the same but dimensionally is accurate.

I just googled the part number Transmech 641441881 and it comes up correct as a Seat/Audi/VW 1.4 tdi clutch kit.

The friction plate fits perfectly over the splines....just checked.

Release arm and bearing move freely etc

The friction plate was installed with the bulged face facing the pressure plate.

 

im a bit stummped as what to do.

Shall I try cleaning up and installing the old pressure plate with the new friction plate?

 

Edited May 23, 2016 by wehey

[Sausage]

This is a different gearbox isnt it? is it the same codes or something else and are there any differences you can see with it, especially the clutch arm and bearing? 

You are also most likely using your original slave cylinder, make sure yours and the one on the gearbox (if it came with one) are the same (rod length etc)

Thinking about it I was harping on about making sure the plate was the right way around because last few clutches i've done were dmf and they are similar one side to the other so much more prone to being installed wrong, smf clutches arent so would be pretty damn hard to get them the wrong way around anyway .

I wouldnt mix those clutches as they appear to have differences and you will just add an extra complication.

 

[wehey]

The gearbox is off a Polo and is code 02J EXB

everything was identical except the linkages, which I switched over from the original box

i also used the old clutch arm as the replacement was rusted. they were identical too.

here is a pic of the slave cylinder. the one on the left is the original, the one on the right was from the new gearbox

[wehey]

Just checked the clutch arm too and there is a very slight difference

 

[wehey]

So I guess the next logical step would be to put the new clutch and old box on and see what happens eh

if it still doesn't release then we know it's the clutch?

[Sausage]

I'd clean up the rusted clutch arm (lick of paint if you fancy) and slave cylinder and use those with the matching gearbox and new clutch and then get the gearbox bolted up, bleed the slave and see what you have then.

Edit: Your slave looks bigger diameter and thicker rod, it may well be that the cylinder inside is the same but it doesnt look like it from this angle. If you are satisfied they are the same then you could skip this, but if the cylinder is different diameter inside then the travel will be different.

I assume the bearing is the same?

Edited May 23, 2016 by Sausage

[wehey]

The slaves are the same dia actually. They are kind of oval in shape.. It's just the angle.

I will do as you suggest mate.....anythings worth a try at this stage

[Sausage]

The clutch release bearings are the same?  and correctly fitted?

[wehey]

5 hours ago, Sausage said:

The clutch release bearings are the same?  and correctly fitted?

Yep they are all identical

From left to right:

the one off the new box, the old box, new

 

[wehey]

So today I fitted the new clutch to the flywheel.

swapped the clutch arm and slave to the new box so that is in its original state, as I received it.

fitted the box and tried with the original slave cyclinder and still nothing.

swapped out for the new (original slave that came with the new box) and bled it, and still the same.

the clutch pedal is just so loose, with no resistance.

Heres a pic of the clutch fitted. 

 

As as a note, the slave was difficult to bleed. The clutch pedal just sprung to its depressed position and I had to pull it away from the bulkhead by hand.

I removed the slave and bled it uninstalled, then refitted. Only then would the pedal return on its own. Don't know if this is normal or relevant or not???

 

[Sausage]

It sounds very coincidental for the clutch master cylinder to be shot, but if you've eliminated most other things then investigate that.

Pull off the slave still plumbed in and secure the rod somehow to stop it popping out, a bit of wood and cable ties or something. Then press the pedal slowly and see if the piston pushes hard against the wood and how the pedal feels, it should be hard if the rod is against a hard stop.

[wehey]

Ok dude. I will give it a try after dins. 

I appreciate the help ??

[wehey]

Right then......so I have just tested the master cylinder and all appears well with it.

I squished the plunger in so that it sat as if it was installed in the gearbox. I.e with about 1 1/2 inch exposed. Then clamped a piece of 2x2 to the end with some g clamps. Depressed the clutch pedal and it went rock solid about half way down.

 

 

[Sausage]

Sounds good.

Stick it back in, what does the pedal do and feel like? if you press it slowly you should feel it doing it's job with a few changes in pressure as it disengages the clutch. if the pedal goes to the floor with no resistance then something is wrong.

You could fire up the engine and try the gears (you might need oil in gearbox), can you select reverse without grinding? If so the clutch is disengaging, if not it isnt.

Did you change the clutch because of a problem with it or just because you were there doing the gearbox?

The only things left I can think of really are that the gearbox isnt fully home and flush on the block, the clutch is the wrong one, or the clutch arm pivot in the bell housing needs looking at.