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Mattz341

Competition suspension - Lupo Cup set up?

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Hi guys and gals!

I have a suspension related question.

Not the standard "How low can i make my loop m8?!" or "wot happens wen i run helpers?" but hopefully one that'll grab the attention of the more knowledgeable and grown up members of this forum.

Don't get me wrong, I love a nicely done bagged Lupo as much as the next guy but I personally prefer performance over "Stance." (To a degree :tongueout: )

SO.

What do people know about the Lupo cup suspension systems?

Are there any modifications to the wishbones or mounting locations to bring the roll centre of the vehicle back up to a more desired location? I.e. nearer the centre of gravity?

I'm basically looking for information on what the Lupo's ran in the Lupo Cup and whether I'd be able to replicate it on my Lupo.

Thanks in advance!

Matt

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There was a guy on here had an original Club car. Took it to Edition back in 2008 (IIRC)

3721919958_b58af03dd1_o.jpg

Lupo Cup car by Ray Crabb, on Flickr

I'll see if I can dig up his username.

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2015 Volkswagen Racing Cup Championship Regulations

4.8 Suspension

a The suspension components (wishbones, arms, beam, supports bolted to the bodyshell or
the subframe) as well as the bodyshell and subframes must be original Volkswagen Group or
Volkswagen Racing UK components and may only be modified where permitted under these regulations.

b The camber and castor may be adjusted by using the original manufacturer’s system or top
mounting.
Design and construction of the upper joints of McPherson suspension parts of the running gear is
free provided that it bolts onto the original mounting points, which are retained on the bodyshell
side (see regulation 4.5)

c Wishbones may be strengthened, and/or interchanged with other Volkswagen Group
wishbones.

d Front and rear coil springs and spacers are free provided they are single rate linear
items. They may be coil over and must be made of steel. It is permitted to fit helper springs to
each damper unit.

e Dampers and mounts are free in type but not number, i.e. restricted to one per corner.

f Rose type joints or uprated materials may replace rubber bushes on any of the
suspension mounts.

g Lower Ball joints and Track Rod ends may be uprated. Their location may not be changed
except for the front lower ball joints which may be raised or lowered by a maximum of 5 mm in the
vertical plane from the original attachment point in the lower wishbone. Any non-standard joint
must fit in place of the standard Volkswagen item. No modification is permitted to wishbone, hub or
trackrod or any other suspension component to allow a non-standard joint’s fitment.

h Front and rear camber and front caster is free. It is permissible to change the front
hubs, rear hubs and wheel bearings for uprated items. Front and rear track width may not exceed
2010mm. This limit may be altered by official bulletin to all registered competitors giving 7 d ay
s’ n o tice .

i Front and rear bump stops are free provided they are made of rubber or plastic. Any
bolt or fixing used in the suspension may be changed for a higher specification item.

j Front and rear anti roll bars and links are free
The anti-roll bars must be made from ferrous material and must not be adjustable from the cockpit.
The
mountings of the anti-roll bars must not have any other function.

k Rear Suspension
i. Single-Link rear suspension
Rear twist beam must be the Volkswagen Group part originally fitted to that car but the addition or
removal of material is permitted. Additional braces and shims may be added. Mountings are free.

ii. Multi-Link rear suspension
Front wheel drive cars originally produced with multilink rear suspension must use all of the
2015 Volkswagen Racing Cup Championship Regulations
Issued by BRSCC: 13th February 2015
Version: Published Copy
Page 29 of 44
standard rear suspension components which may not undergo any modifications, with the exception of
the enlargement of circular mounting holes into elongated grooves for the sole
purpose of adjustment of suspension geometry. This means that, after removing any suspension part,
a standard suspension component can be refitted without modification and the original operation of
the suspension is unchanged.
All bushes may be replaced with uprated materials.

http://vw-cup.co.uk/teams/015/2015%20Volkswagen%20Racing%20Cup%20Championship%20Regulations%20-%20Published%20Copy.pdf

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Can't go wrong with a set of KW and a Whiteline rear ARB.

I gave my car a spirited drive through France, Spain and Andorra last year via the Pyrenees and the KW v1s with a Whiteline ARB performed exceptionally.

R

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...and G60 disc and carrier upgrades are a worthy brake upgrade. I have G60 Brembo discs all round with Tarox Strada pads, Motul 5.1 fluid and HEL braided lines front and partial rear.

4.11 Brakes

a Brake discs and callipers are free. The brake discs must be made from ferrous metallic material, unless pre-approved by Volkswagen Racing

b Brake pads are free.

c The fitment of manual brake compensator is permitted. The master cylinders and bias system are free.

d Brake cooling ducts are permitted but must not protrude beyond the silhouette of the vehicle and may only use original apertures in the bodywork as per 4.6.13 to bring the cooling air to the brakes. The connection of the air lines to the original apertures in the bodywork is free provided that these apertures remain unchanged.

e The replacement of rubber brake lines by aircraft-quality braided lines is mandatory. The connection of the dual braking circuit is free.

f The pedal box and its location is free. Strengthening through the addition of material is permitted. g The disc protection plates may be removed or their shape modified.

h The hand brake system may be removed.

i ABS control unit may be retained but the ABS modulator must be isolated from the hydraulic braking circuits.

j The brake servo is free, but the brake reservoir and the pedal box must remain in their original compartment.

k Modifications to the bodyshell are authorised provided they have no other function than to allow the fixing of the master cylinder and/or the pedal box, and that they are not at variance with other points of these regulations.

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Can't go wrong with a set of KW and a Whiteline rear ARB.

I gave my car a spirited drive through France, Spain and Andorra last year via the Pyrenees and the KW v1s with a Whiteline ARB performed exceptionally.

R

That's excellent! Thanks Silver!

Yeah I've got up-rated ARB's sitting in the garage waiting to be fitted. The cars on AP coilovers as well, very happy with the ride of them but I'm going to get some V3's as they've got the bump and rebound adjustment I'm after.

As for brakes I'm in two minds, I've got the leon sitting in the garage and I'm tempted to just swap the full breaking system onto the lupo from that. They're 288mm I need to do some research on the performance of them and whats available for them at what price.

Thanks Silver!

Looking to take the car up to brands for some fun before I swap the engine into it!

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The benefit of the G60 280mm discs is that they use the standard calipers. You just need the carriers.

http://www.vwspares.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=1583

They were available on Amazon for that price too, but only one showing now at £60+

http://www.amazon.co.uk/TRW-BDA215-Carrier-Brake-Calliper/dp/B004Z0YIJA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1431099977&sr=8-1&keywords=bda215

I really feel the bite now and have so much confidence in the brakes; even from cold.

I never upgraded the front ARB, just added the rear on the middle setting.

Makes the Polo brakes feel even more appalling....

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Is the Leon not 5x100? Hub conversion?

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Say page cannot be found when you try & open the lupo specific catalogue

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Yeah the Leon is 5x100, I'm only having a look at swapping them over, it was mainly to just save some pennies to be honest!

My old GTI was polybushed everywhere and had the G60 set up and I couldn't fault it. Handled the road incredibly!

I bought the front ARB as well as I wanted the modicum of adjustability that comes with it, also looking for adjustable to plates too. (Haven't really looked yet tbh!)

Thanks for the links, I'll check them out at some point!

Matt

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I have poly bushes too, just need to make the move to get them fitted.

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The cup cars have adjustable top-mounts and reinforced rear beam. But for a streetcar with the mods already mentioned thats probably overkill.

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I'm running the following handling mods on mine...

Bilstein B12 shocks with H&R springs (mk3 golf springs on the front to account for the extra weight of the 1.8t)

Whiteline rear arb

Polybushed wishbones, ARB mounts/links, rear beam and steering rack

Seam welded wishbones

Rose jointed & flipped track rod ends to lessen the effect of bump steer

Toyo R1R tyres

Front & rear strut braces

My findings are as follows...

Polybushes are a waste of time, money and effort. I'm back to original VW bushes now.

An uprated front ARB would be beneficial to help reduce the oversteer when on the limit of traction

The rose jointed track rod ends can't take road use and I've reverted back to standard ball joints

Strut braces don't work regardless of what people tell you

Tyres are the 1 single best modification you can do to make your car grip

  • Like 1

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Good info there. I had read that the standard bushes are quite small and stiff and therefore the poly bushes provide little or no improvement.

I got mine for a reasonable cost, but may just stick witht the OE.

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I'm running the following handling mods on mine...

Bilstein B12 shocks with H&R springs (mk3 golf springs on the front to account for the extra weight of the 1.8t)

Whiteline rear arb

Polybushed wishbones, ARB mounts/links, rear beam and steering rack

Seam welded wishbones

Rose jointed & flipped track rod ends to lessen the effect of bump steer

Toyo R1R tyres

Front & rear strut braces

My findings are as follows...

Polybushes are a waste of time, money and effort. I'm back to original VW bushes now.

An uprated front ARB would be beneficial to help reduce the oversteer when on the limit of traction

The rose jointed track rod ends can't take road use and I've reverted back to standard ball joints

Strut braces don't work regardless of what people tell you

Tyres are the 1 single best modification you can do to make your car grip

That is absolutely perfect!!!

Especially as I was quite worried about what I should do suspension wise when the APP goes in.

Good info about the polybush set up. I was going to fork out for the Motorsport ones and make everything as solid as possible but I'll save that for a later date!

Why did you Seam weld the wishbones, I'm guessing to reduce the amount of flex they have.

Do you run any kind of LSD?

Many thanks!!

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I'm running the following handling mods on mine...

Bilstein B12 shocks with H&R springs (mk3 golf springs on the front to account for the extra weight of the 1.8t)

Whiteline rear arb

Polybushed wishbones, ARB mounts/links, rear beam and steering rack

Seam welded wishbones

Rose jointed & flipped track rod ends to lessen the effect of bump steer

Toyo R1R tyres

Front & rear strut braces

My findings are as follows...

Polybushes are a waste of time, money and effort. I'm back to original VW bushes now.

An uprated front ARB would be beneficial to help reduce the oversteer when on the limit of traction

The rose jointed track rod ends can't take road use and I've reverted back to standard ball joints

Strut braces don't work regardless of what people tell you

Tyres are the 1 single best modification you can do to make your car grip

Good post.

Can you please elaborate a little why poly bushes aren't worth it?

100% agree on tyres.

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Yes, I seam welded the wishbones to stiffen them up and to compensate for the extra loading they take with heavier wheels/brakes/engine and a higher spring rate.

The polybushes didn't seem to give any improvement and just made the ride very harsh on the road. When on the track it felt like it turned in a little better, but this could have been down to running slightly more -ve camber.

I also found that they had started to eat away at the steel wishbone housing which in turn developed a slight bit of movement, despite installing them as per the powerflex instructions and using the supplied grease. Not only is it annoying, but it's pretty dangerous.

With regards the rear beam bushes, they were that tight a fit that when I came to refitting the shocks I could barely move the beam, whereas before it would swing with ease. So this meant that my rear suspension's performance was being compromised, as the polybushes were acting as a damper!! These were quickly removed and the benfit was instantly realised.

Maybe I got a bad batch, as I've heard good stories about powerflex elsewhere.

I'm running a Wavetrac diff, but I don't think this is necessary for a standard powered road car.

  • Like 2

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I have the following:

Nfbr gearbox mount

Fully pollybushed

White line rear arb

Wertec coilovers

G60 carriers

Brembo disk

Tarox strada pads had ds2500 previously which were excellent but expensive

Braided lines all round and new hard pipes ( car is on 160,000 miles )

Have standard brake line fluid at the mo as it is unlikely I will do any track days

Have lift off oversteer when pressing on, front is dialed in with little under stear with the geo set up for fast road use, ie have some ground clearance

Have done 50,000 ish miles with the above set up

When something breaks I replace it with whatever the best component available is

It's noisy but I often choose this over the company car if I am in the office ands it's a 72 mile round trip

Edited by angelo77

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On 11/05/2015 at 12:27 PM, Cooper_GTI said:

I'm running the following handling mods on mine...

Rose jointed & flipped track rod ends to lessen the effect of bump steer

 

Where did you get them? 

Edited by cj1

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